red, white & royal blue by casey mcquiston

if you love keeping calm and carrying on, making history by having your secrets exposed on a global scale and misappropriating taxpayer funds to follow your hearts (see also: have booty calls), then by golly do we have the episode for you! come with us on a trip back in time and across the Atlantic, to a magical age where millennials could be used as “marketing strategies” and not just as an insult on TikTok - that's right, this month we tackle Red, White & Royal Blue by Casey McQuiston. we also have our first guest on the pod to talk us through the many, many (many) British-isms featured in this book. you can find more of Brian and his blossoming music career at @officialbigboib. will this queer romance achieve the elusive ‘lit’ rating or fall, like so many before it, directly into the shit pits?

just as Alex feels forever about Henry, we feel forever about our listeners so please subscribe and rate the podcast!

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join talk lit, get hit podcast for deep dives into the hottest BookTok recommendations, trending contemporary fiction, and literary favourites! each episode features book discussions, spoiler-filled chats, and thoughtful literary analysis of novels everyone is talking about - from viral romance and fantasy to modern classics. whether you’re looking for BookTok book reviews, author interviews, or a virtual book club experience, out podcast is your go-to space for readers who love stories and want to explore them in depth.

talk lit, get hit are reading and recording on Giabal, Jagera, Jarowair & Turrbal lands. we acknowledge the cultural diversity of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and pay respect to Elders past, present and future. always was, always will be.  

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to Talk with Get Hit, a podcast where we read questionable books recommended to us by social media and talk shit about them.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Where Bridget, Erin, and Laura, three friends who haven't mentally progressed since high school, where we bonded over a love of music and books, but mainly Twilight.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Brace yourself for a heady cocktail of somewhat highbrow and incredibly lowbrow ramblings about all the books the internet loves and our journey to figure out why.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Ahoy from the colony! Welcome back to the show and welcome to the August episode of Talk Lit Get Hit. This month, our podcast pick is the perfectly patriotic and deliciously diplomatic queer romance novel that is Red, White, and Royal Blue by Casey McQuiston.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Is that the first time you've ever been able to say red, white, and royal blue without right then when I just said it is the first time I've ever been able to say things. It's so hard. Red, white, and royal blue.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Red white and what the fuck.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Just pick one sound and stick to it. Casey, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

You don't need that many colours in the title, really. It's so excessive. So we originally had a different book in mind for our August book, but when we ran our giveaway for our copy of Happy Place, a lot of people suggested that we read this book, and when we looked into it a little bit more, we found out that the movie was coming out on August 11, so we decided to switch things up a bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

We are shameless.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

We are shameless writing that promo. We are trying to cash in on that movie adaptation, which is probably a good place to start. What is some of your favorite book to movie adaptations?

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Coming out the gate with a serious question.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

I'm interested to see how many of these will be the same.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

I saw a sneak peek of one of yours before, and I'm kicking myself that I didn't think of it because I think mine are very like serious, like earnest book adaptations. So now I feel like a dickhead. But I do have a couple I could rattle off. I think right at the top of my list would be the 2005 Pride and Prejudice adaptation. Me and every other girly under the sun live for that hand flex. So I I just love that. Another I had is The Little Prince. I don't know when that came out, but it was an animated one from at least five or so years ago. And I had not even really read that book, but it's just such a sweet, beautiful book, and it's so beautifully animated. I think it's a case where for me the movie's better than the book. And then probably one more I can think of, or maybe two, actually, now that I look at it. The Greta Gerwig Little Women is pretty top of my list. And one more that would if I ever wanted to rip my heart out and take a shit on it, I would watch this movie again, and that is on Chessel Beach, which was an Ian McKeown book. But then it has Sertia Ronan and Billy Howe. But yeah, anything for Sersha.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

So what about Atonement? Would you rate Atonement as a good adaptation?

SPEAKER_01 2:57

I really would rate Atonement as a good adaptation. I think so too. Yeah. Same as Chessel Beach, like only if I want to have my heart ripped out and shit on. But I you know I love that, so yes, you do.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

It's kind of your thing. Uh what about you, Bridget?

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Uh I have a few on here. Um, two are the same. Little Women, of course. Um, one of my favourite books, one of my favourite movies. Um Pride and Prejudice, obviously. I have another um Jane Austen that is slightly controversial, but I loved the 2022 Persuasion with Dakota Johnson. Have you seen it? No.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Neither of you? I thought it looked fun though.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Everyone hated it and I loved it so much. I thought it was so funny. Also, Oliver Twist, but the 2005 version, not the musical. I mean, I love the musical too, but the 2005 version is so sad and it's like matches the book way more than the musical, and it is so sad. I remember watching it after actually Laura and I were in the musical back in 2011, maybe. Oh my god. Oh, it was so sad because I was expecting, like, you know, con set of yourself, but no, it was just crying in the corner. So that's that one.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

I did love this adaptation. So I back you on that.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Another one I love was The Secret Garden from 1993.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Oh, that's such a good pick.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Such a beautiful book and a beautiful movie. And then my last two came from I mean, it seems to be the best year of cinema. 2008. The first one is Angus Songs and Perfect Snogging.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

Oh, banger!

SPEAKER_00 4:32

That's a great choice. And also Twilight. Oh, because we can't go an episode without mentioning Twilight. It has to be mentioned.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Oh, solid picks. Those were amazing. I see your secret garden and raise it, Bridge to Terabithia.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Haven't seen it.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Oh, it's devastating.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

I would say one of my favourite book-to-movie adaptations is the Crazy Rich Asians movie. So I really love that book and I loved the movie so much. It's one of my favourite movies now. Um, and it's set in Malaysia, so it's a very like little slice of home. Yeah, it's a really nice movie, and a lot of it is filmed where I grew up there as well, so it's really nice.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

That's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

I always watch the Mahjong scene on TikTok. Oh, it's so good.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

And like Michelle Yeo can do no wrong. I've loved her so much for so long, so I'm so glad she's getting the recognition she deserves. But other ones I had in mind were Jurassic Park, which Bridget has never seen because she hates dinosaurs. Is it a book? Yes, the book is so good. The book does a really great job of like explaining all the like science and stuff behind how they do it. See, that sounds really interesting. No, like I don't like science. Aaron knows how I feel about Jurassic Park and dinosaurs in Georgia. I don't like science, but it does a really interesting way of like explaining how they like recreate the like it would answer all the plot holy sort of questions. Yeah, and then like everything you need from the book is in the movie without having those science bits explained, you still understand it. And then I would also say Fight Club is better as as a movie than a book.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

I didn't know that was a book.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Fight Club.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

I think I've read that book. I agree. I think I didn't take too much from the book.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Yeah, nah, the movie's much better. And I would say the same for One Floor Over the Cuckoo's Nest as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

I haven't seen the movie. I liked I really liked the book.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Yeah, and you saying Fight Club, it reminded me of what I was just reviewing on my Goodreads, trying to remember what books I've read and what movies I've seen. Um, but one that I put clearly just trying to be cool was American Psycho, but I think that movie's great, and that book is also pretty great, but the movie's fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Yeah, definitely. I think my last one would probably be I really liked the Maze Runner movie adaptations. And they are quite different to the books, so they change the plot a little bit as the movies go on, but I think they do a really good job of getting where you need to go without the amount of time you've got in the book to get there.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

I liked those too. Now, like just slinging shit around, but I really liked the Hunger Games movies as well.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Yes, I think they have the right amount of tension in them.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Who knew there were so many? What movies?

SPEAKER_02 7:24

This is in Laura discovers Hollywood.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

One of the biggest industries in the world, age 29.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

It's the darnest thing.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

You won't believe it. Holy shit, you guys, they make movies out of books.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

I just got an SBS on demand account. Try holding me back.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Nothing can stop me now. They're like TikToks but longer.

SPEAKER_04 7:55

Wow, so lifelike. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

Well mean girl. Now that you've discovered the magical world of movies, Laura, what books would you like to see made into movies?

SPEAKER_01 8:16

I'm just a little girl with a dream, but I think. I know what you're gonna say it. It is pretty basic of me, but I would really like to see a movie adaptation of The Secret History. You know, I want to see a movie adaptation, assuming it's perfect. And another one is this book called The Paper Palace that I loved so much, and I think I bang on about it all the time on the show, or if I'm not directly referencing it, it's what's in my mind um so often in these discussions. And something that was so great about it was that it did have this really like cinematic, kind of filmic quality to it. The author, Miranda Cowley Heller, um, was a senior vice president and head of drama at HBO. Um, and she oversaw shows like The Sopranos and Six Feet Under and The Wire. So I think that makes a lot of sense as to why it was such a good book in my eyes.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

You know what would make a really nice movie would be Happy Place. Happy Place would be a really nice movie, and you could see all like the flashbacks and the like vivid colours, the vibes would be so nice. I'd watch that. Me too. That's the only one I can think of right now. I think that would be a great movie.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

I was looking through my Goodreads red list just to have an idea, and then every time I saw one that was like, oh, that'd be a good movie, I realised it's already a movie, and I just haven't watched it. So I guess I don't I don't have any ideas. That tracks. Yeah, it is hard though because we do Golffinch sounds good.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

Yeah, that's already a movie. We do live in a time where there aren't that many non-book movies or TV shows anymore. So it is strange.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Very true. And I just discovered Hollywood today. Who to thunk it? You're just a little guy. Alright, then moving on with the show. I guess as always, before we dig into it, we have to say what our initial thoughts, expectations, hopes, and dreams were coming into this book.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

So I have actually already read the book. I read it back in like 2021 and unfortunately didn't get the time to reread it before this episode, so I'm really flying by the seat of my pants here. I googled some spark notes, so I'm gonna try my best. But going into it the first time, I just remembered knowing that it was like a queer love story which appealed to me because I hadn't read many of those at that point. And like I kind of liked the idea of the like political enemies. Uh so I think I had like reasonable hopes for a good time. What about you guys?

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Um, I was mildly interested, and but I think it was mainly because I found a really nice copy of it at um Dymix and it's got blue pages and it has Dimmix. A nice cover, and that was really all I was interested in. So I I did not really have that like high hopes about it.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Agreed. I was even saying mildly interested might be a stretch. I I think Once again, why are we reading these books? Well, it's a great question, Erin. Something I ask myself every day. It wasn't so much the substance of the book that interested me. I'm not really interested in the royal family or the American presidency or anything like that. But I did think it would be nice to read about some characters that were queer for a change, especially um on the show, because I think pretty much every book we've read has been about a straight hero couple.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

As the main couple for sure.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

And even like though this isn't really, you know, breaking too far from that mould, I thought this would be nice for a change.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

And if people perhaps have better recommendations of more diverse reads, then feel free to send them through all the places. All the channels. All the channels, all the places, they're linked in the description box. Obviously, if you don't want to have anything spoiled for you, then this is no longer the place for you to be, so just click out of the episode. Likewise, if you don't like rude words, then it's best if you proceed with caution. Content warnings for this episode uh include forced outing and referenced sexual assault.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

First son Alex Claremont Diaz is the closest thing to a prince this side of the Atlantic.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

With his intrepid sister and the Veeps' genius granddaughter, they're the White House Trio, a beautiful millennial marketing strategy for his mother, President Ellen Claremont.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

International socialite duties do have downsides, namely when photos of a confrontation with his longtime nemesis, Prince Henry, at a royal wedding leak to the tabloids and threaten American and British relations.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

The plan for damage control, staging a fake friendship between the first son and the prince.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

As President Claremont kicks off her re-election bid, Alex finds himself hurtling into a secret relationship with Henry that could derail the campaign and upend two nations.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

What is worth the sacrifice? How do you do all the good you can do? And most importantly, how will history remember you?

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Well, okay, now that we've all actually read the book, where do you where do you land? What are you feeling about this book now that you have digested all 400 and whatever pages of it?

SPEAKER_02 13:26

So I enjoyed it when I first read it, but I have very minimal memories of it. And so in my spark noting, I remembered bits that I had honestly forgotten all about, and I don't know if I would enjoy it as much reading it now. But I'm curious to have these conversations and see where I land by the end of it. But I know I had fun reading it.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

I had zero fun reading this book. I left reading this book until after I read last month's book, Fourth Wing, because I thought that I would not enjoy Fourth Wing as much because it's a fantasy book, and I always think I don't like fantasy. Um, and I thought this would be like an easy, palatable book, like just a funny, silly book that I could just easily knock over in like a night. And I was so bored. It was so long.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

It is very long. I do remember that because I listened to the audiobook.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

It's actually incredible. It's so long. Not only long, it's longer than it needs to be. Like it just goes on and on and on.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

I was thinking this will be, you know, maybe this won't be the best book I've ever read, but it'll be pretty innocuous. Um, but I found myself like actively irritated throughout listening to it. I listened to it as an audiobook for the most part. I read some of it, and I was listening even on double speed, and I was like, this shit cannot get done fast enough. It just wouldn't stop. It was relentless. It kept going around and around and around. Even though I was keeping notes throughout, and as I'm reading over my notes, I'm like, I remember that happening. I will say it's probably one of the most forgettable books I've read recently, because even in the space of a week or less than a week that it it's been since I've read it, I've forgotten so much about it.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

I finished it last night and I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

What I remember from reading it was it was a lot of like back and forth. Once you thought that one of their dramas was resolved, it was almost like you were back at the beginning of the very same drama all over again. Like they didn't actually progress a great deal until the very last chunk of book.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

Yeah, like they just kind of fuck around over and over and over again, and then it's like the election night, and everything seems to all happen then.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

I feel betrayed by this book because when I started listening to it, I was really enjoying it. And it was ticking boxes that I didn't know that I wanted to have ticked. Like I was reading it and thinking, oh my god, like I really never thought a book about the Prince of England and the son of the president would be something I would enjoy. Uh, but it was tapping into some sort of like fantasy I've always enjoyed. I always enjoy reading stories about like rich, glamorous, popular crowds of people that are just normal underneath it all, and they're like playing with expectations and the paparazzi are tailing them. I love those kinds of stories. That's all the fun stuff. After a while, something changed, and suddenly I was like, you privileged motherfuckers, and I did not care about it. I don't know what that line was.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

For me, it was when they got together. I was enjoying it, like I really liked the start. I liked the wedding, I liked hearing about how angry Henry made Alex. I liked when they kissed at the New Year's party. Yes. I thought that was so good. I think when they finally got together, it just like fizzled away into nothing.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

This is a problem I have with this book, and I was talking to Brown about it. Like, I think a criticism we always see of movies and TV shows is like you never see what happens after they get together. And like there's a reason for that because it's fucking boring. Like it is, it's so excruciating.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Like you think about any sitcoms, after they get together, it becomes so boring. It's like New Girl after Jess and Nick got together. It was still funny, but it was nowhere near the early seasons. Um, the mini project, I stopped watching after she got with whatever his name is.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Every single relationship with friends.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Pam and Jim. Yes. They were so boring after they got together. Don't mess. Like, we know it's the pining that people want. We don't want to see happy relationships.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

I think, and and you've talked about this before as well. Um, I think when we're talking about happy place, it's interesting to read about people who have been together for a long time and how they exist together and how they learn and how they know about one another. And it's interesting to see that pre-phase where they are learning about one another. But anything that happens in that honeymoon period is so insubstantial. Like, if I were to have to be a fly on the wall for Browns and my like first year of our relationship, it would be so sickening. Like, you feel like you're making such headway in a relationship, but really all you're saying is like, oh my god, do you like spaghetti? I like spaghetti too. Let's kiss. Like, it's just so wishy-washy. Yeah. It's not fun.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

Yeah, and I find that in books especially, it's always like overdone with those grand like declarations, like, I could never live without you. You are everything to me. Like, bro, calm down.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Like he says that this is a forever thing. I'm a thousand percent sure. Like, relax six months in, and they don't even live in the same country. Yeah. And two people that have been brought up in their world, so like Alex's world of American politics and Henry's role within the monarchy. Two people have been raised to fulfill these positions. It has always been known that this would happen. They have no regard for security, they have no regard for their privacy, they are not at all worried about what's going to happen. They're always in public drunk. Like they're just walking around, they're emailing. Why would you email? Oh my god, if you are the first son. It's incredible. And the prince of the United Kingdom, you don't send your thoughts during through email. This has never ended well, and it never will. It's insane. It's private server. Especially in an election period. And the British tabloids are always out for black. It's so dumb.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

I don't know. I like the the stupidity of that. That like, even though they should maybe know better, they're doing it anyway. Um, and like the kind of like what Laura was saying, that they're behaving like quote unquote normal people in abnormal circumstances. Not to suggest that anyone, because what are they? 21 in these books. No 21-year-old is emailing anyone.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Also, the gross misuse of taxpayer funds, death heading around the house.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

Yeah, fuck the environment, they said.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

That's where I started to tap out when they would have an argument and one of them wouldn't respond for a day or whatever, and then they'd be like, I can't stand it any longer. I'm catching a red eye to the next country, like, get a rip.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

And no one in either of their like inner circles was like, bro, you need to calm down, like just chill, maybe give them a call or something. Yeah, you should fly there.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

I don't know why they ever swap because they were texting. Why didn't they just stick with the texting? Why did they move to email?

SPEAKER_02 20:40

They're not 80. Well, I think it's because in the email they were sending the love letters to each other. But they could still text them. Yeah, but it's different. Email is like a letter. It's dumb. No, I I I agree, I agree. But that's why it's like the letter.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

They should have just written a letter. That would have been more exciting. That would have been cuter. The letter fell into the wrong hands. Or even like I know what you're saying, like um, it is ex-like it's it's nice that they got so caught up in each other that they um dropped their guard and they were seen, but I think that they should have been careful up until the point where they just couldn't control it and then they were seen. It definitely they were too obvious. Definitely. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

So that is another of my key grievances with this book. Um, and I think I probably could have managed my own expectations had I just read the blurb a bit more carefully. Um, because it does say I mean two very conflicting things. It says that they are arch nemesis, um, but then it does also say they find themselves in a secret relationship. Like those two things can't exist side by side. But I was going into this thinking, oh, this will be enemies to lovers. Oh, chasing the high I've never achieved. And the setup for this was so good. I have a section highlighted. I I really liked their initial banter around one another and the kind of like Arrogance and disdain and like just complete disregard they had for one another. And I liked this section where Alex was talking to June. So she says, Is it possible you willfully forgot about the biggest international event of the year because you don't want to see your arch nemesis? June, I'm the son of the President of the United States. Prince Henry is a figurehead of the British Empire. You can't just call him my arch nemesis, Alex says. He returns to his donut, chewing thoughtfully, and adds, Arch nemesis implies he's actually a rival to me on any level and not, you know, a stuck-up product of inbreeding who probably jerks off the photos of himself. Then June says, Wolf. And Alex says, I'm just saying. I liked that setup, and then I really liked Alex's flashback to seeing a young Prince Henry on the pages of like what I assume was the equivalent of Total Girl.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

I liked that too.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

I could picture that. And I could picture, I remember those spreads of like young, tan, sandy-haired Prince William when he poor man had hair. Yeah. And being like, oh, what a little heart throb in his tennis whites and like preppy little pop collars. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

Yeah. And I think before when you're a child or like a teen or a preteen, you you really haven't really uh had the awakening of the monarchy and everything that means. So at that time you're still thinking, wow, a handsome prince, how cool. Imagine if I like grew up and married him and became a princess. And like, especially when we were young, Princess Mary was from Tasmania, then she became the princess of Denmark. So that was you know exciting. And I could defin I definitely understood why he was acting the way he was. I thought it wasn't a bad premise.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

No, and like it's fun, like even though like down with the monarchy, it's still like a fun idea to think of like political enemies falling in love and stuff like that. And I agree, I really liked Alex's snark and like just how much he would bait Henry to be mean to him. And I think I always just feel like that stuff ends far too soon. Everyone just starts being nice to each other and stops like snarking and trying to get a rise out of each other. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

For me, if I was really going to enjoy it and if it was going to be like a political, romantic drama, I don't know what you would call it. If it's going to be an alternate universe, it has to be a full alternate universe. You can't just rewrite one country's history and stay with the other, especially when you're still referring to real people, and also you're referring to real life political parties and you're saying Republican, Democrat, one bad, one good. Like you can't just say, We're the Democrats and we're shining and those bloody Republicans over there. Like, it's not the way it is. And if you're going to write from the perspective of true American history, I think you have to show some of those bad bits as well. The rewritten current British history, but it's also too close to comfort. Every single name is a name of a current senior member of the royal family. And I just feel like just pick another name, make another country. Everything is going to be the same. Exactly. The effects of colonialism is still going to be the same if it's not called Great Britain or the United Kingdom. They're going to be exactly the same. Just make a new country. Make a country like America. Just change it a little bit so people can take themselves away from from what they already know. Exactly. The author hasn't done that, and I think it just reads like a glorification of the Democratic Party. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Yes. Reads as a strangely patriotic novel from someone you wouldn't really expect to have that sentiment.

SPEAKER_02 25:33

Definitely. And there's some weird, like patriotic quotes. One of the quotes that I found was, I am and have been first, last, and always a child of America. Like what a weird way to refer to yourself.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

And I think like it is kind of exactly what you were saying, Bridget. Like it's almost written in this semi-alternate universe utopia where you have a female president and like they're turning Texas blue. And like there is some elements like that where you are thinking, oh, okay, this is not set in the real world. Like they have Henry's dad was an actor, and I assume that was like alternate universe, like Grace Kelly or something. But it's what you say, like, how far are you willing to suspend disbelief? Because I found the parts of this story didn't fit together. If we're in this place where a woman can be president and Texas is turning blue, like why are we still in that same universe? Like, no, no, no, you can't come out, people won't accept you. It's like the Bridgerton thing where it's like really well-represented cast, like um, people of colour are in positions of power, and it's just like this utopia that's never addressed.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Uh, and that's why it works in a way, because it's just this completely fictional while still base, and while you can still recognize where it's coming from, but also when you think about the other side of the pond, um, it has like endless and like the most basic criticism of the monarchy, but at the same time just going on and on about how great it is that he's the prince and he's so fantastic, and he lives in this castle, lives in blah blah blah blah. Like, do you hate the monarchy or do you love it?

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Like isn't he like deeply lonely in that castle anyway? Henry's not okay. Uh, but I mean, maybe that's part of the point. When you think about Alex, especially, like, with his bisexuality and he's half Mexican, is that correct? So he's already taking up a lot of space that is typically reserved for white straight people, especially white straight dudes. And I think there's almost an element of like rebellion in him claiming his I don't know, like Americann-ness, or like saying I am a child of America and saying, like, a child of America doesn't always look white and straight. They look like me and they look like everyone. And because he was in that position of not power, but a position of like recognition, he did the brave thing and he chose to claim that space as much as he could for all the people who can't.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

There was a great part in it when I think it was Christmas, and Alex and June's father came and they were sitting on the like the balcony, must be some historic, I don't know anything about this, but must be some historic balcony, and they were um sharing a cigar and they were like, look, like, look at us. Like we're descendants of immigrants, and we're sitting on this balcony, and imagine if those bosses could see us now, like that sort of thing. And I liked that. I feel like that part was good, but I just think that if you're gonna get rid of the current royal family, like just change it completely, but make it so we still know what we're what we're where we are.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Just take it away a little bit, make it into a real alternate universe.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Also thinking about the kind of flimsy criticisms of American politics or um the monarchy. At first I was quite enjoying the kind of throwaway lines, like in banter, I think there's one about like something about Woody Allen, something about waterboarding. And at first I was like, haha, that's funny. But as they kept building up, I was sort of like, Well, what are you doing with all of these?

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Like, I don't know if it's enough. I had the same experience, and then when I got to when we got to the bit where Henry was talking about King James I, he's obsessed with King James I because some scholars think he is was homosexual. He's the son of Mary, Queen of Scots, so he was the King of England, he was the one that unified England and Scotland. Not a guy to be idolizing. He he was the king at the time of the gunpowder plot where they tried to blow up parliament. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

This guy is not a a a role model, he's always talking about it. Well, it's no different to the way they idolise Hamilton in this as well. Like they send the quotes from the letters between Hamilton and John Lawrence, and Alex is named after Hamilton. And yeah, they talk about him a little bit because Hamilton was also an immigrant, so on and so forth. If you've watched the musical, you know. Um, but Hamilton was also objectively a very bad person. He did very bad things. And it's interesting, I think, that that they make all these throwaway comments about bad things that have happened, but do put these two historic people on a pedestal that they probably shouldn't be on, or don't even like balance it with anything. It's just a really strange piece of like almost historical fan fiction, I would say. Like it's a really interesting uh way to look at very real problems.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

If they had created a different country like Genovia, we wouldn't be able to think about our past knowledge about these people. And we would we would be able to be in the story, and when he's telling his beautiful story about King James I and how lovely and he is, and the beautiful letters that Hamilton was writing to whoever he was writing his letters to, you would be able to enjoy that. You would be able to think, oh, this is lovely. Like they're sharing context, they're sharing their culture, they're sharing their history, sharing their ancestry. But no, you're just stuck thinking about well, this guy says he hates everything the monarchy represents, but spends all of his time thinking about King James I.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

Yeah. It doesn't make any sense. Like, obviously, it's a point of debate for decades about whether these historical people are gay or not. But we don't know, actually, and we can read whatever we want into their letters and find romance in whatever we want. You're telling me there's no one from history that has absolutely claimed their homosexuality that we could have referred to in this book? We're just gonna like grasp at straws for people that maybe once were gay.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

We've got some throwaway mentions to Oscar Wilde, um Elton John's in there, Mick Jagger, um he has some criticism about Prince, but like just his little bits. But then they spent all this time talking about King James.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Should we get Brian in as a British person?

SPEAKER_02 32:06

Should we get some representation in here? Let's get our first guest on the pod. Let's have um some consultation. Bridget's fiancee is British and he has a lot to say about the content of this book. We really need more opinions from straight white men.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

God knows I'd love to hear what he has to say. But welcome, Brian. Pop off King Brian.

SPEAKER_03 32:29

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Oh cute. I had a lot of problems with this book because I felt like the author was running a Tumblr account that mainly re-blogged Keep Calm and Carry On memes from 2010.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

So he listens to a lot of Arctic monkeys.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Yes. I've made a list of all of the stereotypes that were just chucked in. Just to make just just to make us really know that the character was actually from England, guys.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

Oh my god, I don't know if you knew that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Was he? Oh my god. Stop it. So just we've invited the only uh person from England that we know onto the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 33:09

Ayop.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Ayop. So while you're on you're not from London, you're from Yorkshire. First of all, how do you feel about Southerners, the Londoners? Southerners, the Londoners. How do you feel about them?

SPEAKER_03 33:22

Um Southerners? Scum of the earth, I think.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Um the first question I would like to ask you, and I already know the answers, but I'm just gonna ask you anyway. If you were the son of the president of America and you were staying um as a royal guest, what do you think you would be served for breakfast?

SPEAKER_03 33:43

Oh, um, Heinz baked beans on toast.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

That's definitely what they were served on breakfast. Unbelievable. The finest. They would not give a royal guest beans on toast. And why are they like specifying the brand as they weren't? Oh. That's just brine beans funny. You're right, it is the right brand, though. Um, have you ever said to somebody, you are the thistle in the tender and sensitive ass crack of my life? Yuck.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

Um no. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Sorry. Um, another question I have for you. When it's Christmas time and you're asleep and somebody calls you like really early to wake you up, are you listening to Good King Wenceless? Because apparently that plays all the time in England when it's Christmas time.

SPEAKER_03 34:32

What?

SPEAKER_00 34:33

On the first time.

SPEAKER_03 34:35

Oh, is that what that is? Oh, that's what that was.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Did you ever refer to anybody as gay as a may pole? Did you dance the maypole?

SPEAKER_03 34:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Can you tell us about that?

SPEAKER_03 34:49

On May Day would um dance around the maypole. So there'd be a ribbon attached to the top of the pole, your ribbon, and then you would rhythm rhythmically dance around it and weave around the people who are running towards you to make a nice pattern with the ribbons down the pole.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Cute, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

I want to do that.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Oh. I've never done a may pole, but I always thought the idea was do not tangle up those goddamn ribbons. Yeah. So I would not be very good if I was asked to participate. Like, get out of my way! Stop, stop, you're tangling it, stop it. Guys are literally the other way. I'm done playing with you guys.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Another thing I really liked was the fact that when Henry had to choose a tropical destination, he chose Mallorca. What can you tell us about that? Henry said something about Mallorca. It's the Prince of England.

SPEAKER_03 35:42

The Prince of Hingory is not the Prince of England's not talking about Mallorca. Majorca's like the next step up from Scarborough. That is.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

What would you say the Australian equivalent is?

SPEAKER_03 35:55

Bali. Not that I haven't been at Bali or Mallorca, but that's so funny.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

One more question. Have you ever, when you can't sleep at night, had Jaffa cakes in bed while watching the great British bake-off?

SPEAKER_03 36:12

No.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Oh. Um, how do you feel when people say Prime Minister of England?

SPEAKER_03 36:18

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Factually incorrect. It's not what he is. Isn't he? Yeah, what is he otherwise? Well, is he the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom?

SPEAKER_02 36:26

Maybe you should have done this segment yourself. The British guy doesn't know. I doubt you're right. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_03 36:32

I mean like Sam Snowy've said that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Yeah, I I don't know. I just guess he's also not the king of England. Maybe this is the fictional land that we spoke of.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Yeah. Post-Brexit land. Have you ever called someone a Dickensian street orphan? What an incredible.

SPEAKER_03 36:52

No, I've called people a plonker. A WASIK. Uh-uh. Or um a southern. I won't go there actually.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

Um don't get us cancelled, Brian.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Have you ever run around outside in your vests and pants and throwing satsumas at one another?

SPEAKER_00 37:09

No. Okay, well, you can go now. Thanks for being on the pod, Brian.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

I think that was some really good insight from our friendly neighborhood British man. I certainly learned a lot. I learned a lot from Bridget about anyone else.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

One scene, one sentence that particularly rubbed me the wrong way is a scene where Nora and Alex are eating some Mexican burritos, maybe, and some guacamole falls from Nora's food and lands on her phone. And the line says, Nora licked the guacamole off her screen. Yuck.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

Yuck. Yuck. Keep in mind this is pre-COVID. Like this is all set in 2020, but it was released in 2019.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Still, I still think that in 2019 people should not have been licking their phone screen.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Disgusting. I hate consuming food that has been on a surface that is not a serving platter or cutlery. Like I always think about this kid I went to Kindi with. Every God to a lunchtime. Every lunchtime without fail, he would have a chocolate yog, and he would spill it all down the front of his shirt. And I would watch him scraping up the like fabric of his polyester little like polo shirt. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

That's so gross.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

And the textures, the tastes, the little pieces of lint that aren't meant to be in there. Yeah. Oh no, thank you. That was gross. After that, I was like, I don't care what Nora has to say. I don't know. I don't care who she is. I don't care what she has to do. She's dead to I didn't what grade was that happening in? Kindy. Oh. Oh, well like. Disgust. For some reason I thought you were going to be like grade nine. And he always, because it was in like the little tubs. Yeah, he always lick it. And then he had like a permanent chocolate ring around his mouth for so long.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

That does feel on brand for him, though.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

I was wondering if this was the inspiration for one of our major monarchy events that happened in the last few years. Harry and Megan announced they were stepping back from the monarchy in January 2020. Did they read this book and get inspired? Oh my god. Especially because Harry's name is Henry.

unknown 39:44

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

Is it? Yeah. Bridget, how do you know so much about the monarchy? I know a lot about it.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Are you secretly a monarchist?

SPEAKER_02 39:50

No.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

Well, I am uh you're that TikTok that's like, I hate people who work at the bank. Shh.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

I work at the bank. His name's Henry.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Very spooky. Something's a foot. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

I think connecting the dots. I think so. It's a conspiracy.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

I did listen to this as an audiobook, and I think the narration was a lot better than I thought it would be. Typically, I don't really enjoy listening to audiobooks that are narrated by men. I don't know why I just don't want them in my ears. I just I don't maybe it's a particular like tone or frequency that male voices have when they're right in your ear canal, but it's not nice.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

I didn't mind this, but I will say one particular note I had. I'm only two hours-ish into this book, and they're no longer rivals, and it seems like they're no longer going to be rivals in any way forward. And then next note, okay, they've kissed, so why is there over 60% of the book to go? A valid question. This was a problem with the book because their romance really held no gravity for me. I just didn't care about it. There's like the scene at approximately the 34% mark where Alex says it's been nearly five years of foreplay between them. And I was sort of thinking, like, has it? Has it? Because all we've had is one scene. And that scene was when they thought they were being shot at, and so they lay next to each other. I I don't really there was like no build-up. And I feel that down because I think I thought that we were gonna have multiple trips to England where he was doing a cover pretending to be friends with him, and they would we'd have some forced proximity and they would still really be not getting along, and that the romance element wouldn't come until later in the book. And I think once again, this is a case of right ingredients, wrong weight put on them. Yeah. Again, maybe it's me not being able to balance my own expectations of this book versus what it actually was, but I really think that the romance could have been dragged out longer and we could have had still the same gravity from them being outed against their will and the political race commentary storyline that was happening.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Definitely. And I feel like a lot of the drama in this book is that whole political race, which doesn't even really involve either of them at all. Like that's that's his mum's problem. But I think I really struggle with the concept of enemies to lovers where they have always loved each other and just didn't know how to tell each other. I hate that. Can't you just fall in love because you're forced to spend time with each other and realise they're not as bad as you thought they were?

SPEAKER_00 42:27

Henry said he fell in love with Alex the second they saw each other at the Rio Olympics. They sububu sailors. They said one word to each other and then he asked um his bodyguard, get he said, get him away from me.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

Yeah, Alex hates Henry, except for when he's like staring lovingly at his poster in the magazine.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

I think it makes sense for Alex to be in love with him since that, because I think that's like, you know, pining and he's been denying it, fantasizing and whatever. But I don't think it makes sense that Henry loved him since Rio.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

I don't know. There's also this quote I just found where it's like Alex wants to call Henry. He guesses it makes sense. They've always been fixed points in each other's worlds. Uh little magnetic poles, some law of physics would be reassuring right now. But it's like, have you really been fixed points in each other's worlds? Because it sounds like you didn't have anything to do with each other until the wedding again.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

Like when they first organized the damage control, I was amazed that it was only a weekend. Yeah. I thought we would get like a press tour or like they'd go on like a boys trip or something. It was literally like two days. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

And they're like, that'll fix it.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

Yeah. Saying that, I did enjoy the texting at the start. Yeah. I thought that was funny and the turkey thing, as stupid as that was, I enjoyed the turkey thing as well.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

Should we move on to some of the other characters?

SPEAKER_00 43:49

I just have one more thing to say. Henry says that Luke Skywalker is the best Star Wars character because he is brave and good and he's the strongest Jedi of them all. Henry is both wrong. And boring like Luke is. Luke Skywalker sucks. He is so boring. And it makes sense that Henry would like him. And his favorite movie is Return of the Jedi. Are you for real? And Alex's favorite movie is The Empire Strikes Back. Oh my god. These people have no taste.

SPEAKER_02 44:17

Who do you think is the strongest Jedi?

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Anakin Skywalker is the best character. I don't even care about strongest Jedi.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

He is just the best. I know. I know we are an Anakin Defense Squad. I was just curious who you think is the strongest character. I think he is.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

I think I'm not really a Star Wars fan, and the fact that Luke Skywalker is probably like the first Star Wars character I could think of tells you they're not a strong choice.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

It it seems to me, and obviously I don't know anything about the author, but it seems to me like a very easy choice to make from someone who doesn't really know the source material. Because I think most Star Wars fans have favourite Jedi's that are like really small characters. Not many people love Luke. Like my favourite Jedi is Mace Windu. Yeah. I think he's sick, but I think he's a groomer. That's the kind of stuff that makes you be like, okay, that that person probably really likes Star Wars.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

I think that Luke Skywalker, when did he ever do anything good? Like he is so it's really just like right place, right time for him. He just gets lucky every time. And he's like skating off the success of everybody else. And the best movie in the Star Wars franchise is Revenge of the Sith. I'm sorry, there is no question about it.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

Period. Before we move on to talking about the other characters, one thing that I will say is that I am still looking forward to the movie of this because I feel like overall I I actually enjoyed Casey McQuiston's writing. I didn't like the plot or the pacing, but the writing itself I thought was like quite good. I liked the banter, I liked the characters well enough. I thought they were fairly fleshed out, they had clear motivations. And I just lost so much interest because I feel that so many of the scenes were like these kind of montage scenes, like club scenes. Like after they get together, there's a scene or series of scenes where it's like they were in Paris, pushed up against a wall, they had sex. Then they went to Ibiza, they were in the clubs on the beach, they had sex, and it goes on and on and on. And like I can see the vision, I can see these party scenes, these glamorous, like jet-setting, beautiful like people moments, like when they're in the museum at night time. I was I'd completely lost interest in whatever was happening between them at that time. But I thought, God, if they made this a movie and they just tightened it up a bit, they've got good, fun content to work with.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

I agree. I think it will be a good movie. Um, also, if they sort of updated it a bit, something I kept thinking was this is obviously written pre the fall from grace of millennials on the internet. Yeah. Uh because in 2019, you know, there was nothing cooler than being a millennial, but now I read it and I think, oh, it's embarrassing. Yeah. Um, I think it will be a good movie. And looking at the poster, they look great. They look exactly how I pictured them.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

The vibes look great.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

Exactly. So I'm pretty excited for the movie, and yeah, for the same reasons that you are.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

But I think that's a really interesting comment that you've made, and I think we can expand on it a bit more because I think you're right, this has dated quite quickly. It's not really that old, but it's already not hitting the sweet spot it would have at the time it was released. I think Lori, you were saying before that some Harry Potter references were taken out of the book.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

Yeah, I don't remember when it was reissued, but after J.K. Rowling's transphobic comments, the book was reissued without some references to Harry Potter. I think I might have listened to a couple, and if if I did listen to the older version, they were just in passing, but I think even the references themselves, whether you mind about J.K. Rowling or not, they date it. And just so many of the jokes.

SPEAKER_02 48:15

Just the concept itself. I don't think a book like this would be as embraced now. I mean the kind of fatigue and like complete distrust of both monarchy and American government that is prevalent. Like so much has happened in the past what four years since this was released. It's almost like a comfort read for people. I don't know how many people would still be picking this up for the first time.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

I actually think that in the post-Trump era, it would not. And I I even struggle to imagine people embracing it in 2019. Because if you if you think of pre-2016 American vibes around the world, people were pretty pro-America. It's not USA anymore. And I think that even in 2019, it's a pretty crazy plot to have them, but even now, and especially to add in the the monarchy, like after King Charles's coronation.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

What I was saying before, I think is maybe the point here that it's like if we're imagining a world where um like we talked about before, where a woman is the president and stuff, that they can be out and proud. Because like you know, when they got outed, um forcibly outed, which is a terrible thing and should never happen, but when it did happen, they were like embraced by their communities and stuff like that, and it was there was no backlash for them. And I think in some ways this is a fantasy book in the sense that it's writing a future that the author would like to see. While I agree that the the portrayal of like the Democratic Party equals good or like blue equals good isn't ideal, I kind of like the hope that that suggests that even quote unquote like the most un conservative places can be turned around or can can see the like beauty and diversity and stuff like that. But I think it's not really done with the amount of nuance that maybe we would expect or that it would probably be done with if it was rewritten today.

SPEAKER_01 50:16

We did make a comment about should we talk about the side characters? And I think like really there's not that much to say about them. We have Alex's sister June uh and his friend Nora, and there's Pez and Beatrice, and honestly, they play such minor roles. Yeah, they're just there to throw banter to say like go get your guy and I don't know, be hot. I don't know. I just didn't really find any points of difference between them.

SPEAKER_02 50:50

Yeah, like they're they're fine. I remember when I was listening the first time, I would get confused between who June and Nora was, and like whenever Alex and Nora would be making out, I'd be like, Oh, isn't it his sister?

SPEAKER_00 51:01

I thought that Nora uh June was quite funny. Yeah. Um and that's really where my thoughts about them finish.

SPEAKER_02 51:07

Well, because there wasn't that much given about them. I remember June has this line that's like, You're not the only one who makes like irresponsible sexual decisions or something like that. And it's like the only glimpse at any kind of life outside of Alex and Henry.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

And then at the end it turns out that June and Nora are together.

SPEAKER_02 51:27

Did it?

SPEAKER_00 51:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:28

Stop it, didn't it?

SPEAKER_00 51:28

I don't know if that was in the bonus chapter or I don't even remember. Yeah, but they they ended up together. Oh, I think.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

Because I thought Pez liked June.

SPEAKER_00 51:36

I think it was hinting that they had a threesome. Oh, respect. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

I will say I was very relieved that we didn't have to switch between Henry and Alex's points of two. Oh, I thought it did. Whose POV is it through? Just Alex's. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

In my book, there was a bonus chapter though. It was from Henry's point of view, and it was very boring. And what a surprise they got engaged. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:59

That is so boring. And to be frank, Henry was a boring character. I feel like there was much more that could have been done with him aside from him like pining and like drowning in his own misery. And like, I liked I definitely liked Alex more than Henry, because I feel like Alex had some like personality. Yeah, some personality, he had things he was driving for, and he wanted to make change. Like, there was that whole bit like basically trying to theorize about how to activate Texas to be a democratic state, and he's like, Well, you gotta go out there and talk to them. They're not gonna vote for you if you don't go there. Which I liked. And this book, I think what I'm coming down to with all the discussion we've had, is that this book should have either been wholly like romance with a bit of politics, or wholly politics with a bit of romance, and instead it's just very long and very confused, and I don't think it particularly succeeds at any of them.

SPEAKER_01 52:59

I absolutely agree. I think it's just there's not enough tension throughout in either of those themes. Uh like for example, Alex is having a conversation with either June or Nora about um how Henry probably goes on fake dates. I think it's after their New Year's kiss.

SPEAKER_00 53:18

Um Henry's photographed with a on a date with a woman.

SPEAKER_01 53:22

Yeah. And I think that's an interesting point. And it would have been great if after they were photographed, that was when Henry ghosted him for a week, God forbid. But instead, immediately after that photo happens, Nora or June, I can't remember, has that conversation with him that's like, it's clearly a photo op, he's got to look straight, and then that conversation's resolved, and then they're like, Oh, we're okay now. That makes sense. And then they have another little micro tension, and then they hash it out, and then another one comes up, and it just like continues. I feel like they have the same conversation over and over and over again, and there's never really any tension in their relationship because their problems are resolved so quickly, but also because they're never apart. Like once they get together, they're always together, uh, and they're like jet-setting to one another, like just for a hookup kind of thing, and it just made them very unsympathetic characters to me.

SPEAKER_02 54:18

Yeah, and I think to build off that where you say that every conflict is resolved so easily. What I see as the overall conflict of the book is like, will a conservative industry be accepting of diversity? And because everything is always in their favour, it's actually not attention by the end. You just know that the mum's gonna win the election, and yes, they're gonna turn Texas blue and happy days.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

Even though it's an extreme conflict of interest, yeah, like the gr the grandson of the queen of the United Kingdom.

SPEAKER_02 54:55

Yeah, someone would have to be like stepping down from their position.

SPEAKER_00 54:59

Like And he does in the bonus chapter.

SPEAKER_02 55:03

Oh, okay. Yes. And because I think like Alex gives up his dreams of being a kidney.

SPEAKER_00 55:08

Oh he's he's back on the law train. Oh, yeah. They moved to Texas. They live in New York for a bit and then they move to Texas.

SPEAKER_02 55:15

Oh, in the house with the key.

SPEAKER_00 55:16

No, they make another one.

SPEAKER_02 55:17

Oh build the binding. Well, the house didn't matter that much.

SPEAKER_00 55:20

No, they went and visited it at the end.

SPEAKER_02 55:22

You're meant to like celebrate when they win the election and win in Texas, but you don't because you just knew it was gonna happen. From the start, you knew. Yeah, and like it's good in the sense that yes, if we're writing this like fantasy universe, then yes, it's great. Why shouldn't they all win? Of course, it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

Obviously, we want them to win. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:42

There's no payout for me, and obviously, like diverse stories deserve happy stories as well. They don't have to all be suffering, and I'm not suggesting they should be, but as a reader, I would prefer to have seen losses and stuff in the middle, or like failures of communication, or whatever it may be. That means I didn't perhaps predict such a given.

SPEAKER_00 56:06

That instead of having positive polling numbers throughout the whole thing, and then inexplicably in the last hour of the election, they start losing states and then they win. I think that they should have had speed bumps along the way in the election process, like maybe at the is it the primary elections or whatever they're called, a little bit of failure there. So then there is actually something to keep you reading. Yeah, yeah. If I was a person to DNF books, I probably would have DNF'd this book.

SPEAKER_02 56:34

Oh yeah, because I was so bored. That's an interesting call from you.

SPEAKER_01 56:39

I was also bored. Um, to quote the book, Alex said his primary turn-on has always been competence. And do I feel like this book was competently written? Probably not. Oof. Too mean. Redacted. Desert. I fully agreed with that though. When I when I did hear that in the book, I was like, same. If you're good at something, unless it's like murder, I can't remember. I really barely remember anything about this book, fine despite having read it only like a week ago. I feel like it tried to cover so much ground and it should have so much substance and so much to talk about, but I just I just can't think of anything insightful to say. I just didn't find it that interesting.

SPEAKER_00 57:24

I really wanted to like it, but I just do you think you would have liked it more if it was um the son of the Democrat president. And the son of the Republican candidate. Yes. I think that would have been very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 57:41

The like debates of policy that they could have as like banter and then like fighting at the like behind the scenes at debate night or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 57:51

Like what is it that makes Alex and Henry rivals? Is it just like you're just a figurehead, I'm the real deal? It doesn't really make them very interesting characters because actually you're both exactly the same and very compatible in that respect.

SPEAKER_00 58:07

And they're both um trading barbs about each other's country, like as if their countries aren't exactly the same. Yeah. Like Henry's saying, or at least I don't waterboard people, as if the United Kingdom hasn't ever done that. Like a news flash. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:21

Alex only hates Henry because Henry was rude to him one time.

unknown 58:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:25

And he thought he was yeah, he thought he was hot. Held on to it that whole time.

SPEAKER_00 58:30

Uh one other when we were talking about the tension and the lack thereof, or the lack of any real problems, I was thinking about when they went to the holiday house or wherever they were, um, when they were swimming in the lake, and Alex was going to tell Henry that he loves him, and Henry like freaked out and went back inside and the next morning he was gone. I find that to be so just stupid because I think that if Henry, this boring, like straight-laced man who you know lives his life through policy and is guided by everything that guided through his life, he wouldn't be making this decision if he wasn't in it for the long haul, I think. Like he wouldn't be just hooking up.

SPEAKER_01 59:15

I agree with that. His through line didn't really make much sense. And I also feel like when I read these characters, like if I had someone in my own life where I was trying to connect with them, trying to say I love you, trying to really take a risk and put my feelings on the line, and then they just bailed and left without a word. I would I'm not bothered with that. I would just be like, all right, I'd be mortified. I have some self-preservation, this is a horrible feeling. I don't really care what you have to say, I'm gonna bow out of this scenario. And I don't really like reading about characters that handle situations like that because it makes me really lose respect for them. Because I don't really mind if you say the wrong thing. I I want you to try. I want to be communicated with very much so.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:03

So I And convinced that like their forbidden love is like worth fighting for. Because sometimes she said really funny things and like really slammed Alex. And I liked that because he was annoying.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:20

She was also the one that was like, Yeah, fly to London. That's so Jane Austen of you.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

Yeah. But maybe she was also saying that in like a little bit of a like shady way. You're like, Yeah, that's a great idea, Alex. And he was just too dumb to like pick up on the sarcasm.

unknown 1:00:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:35

I don't think I could pick a favourite character. Maybe Cash. Cassius. My only word on him was like, that is such a good name for a bodyguard.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:44

What did he do on the cryptic the New York Times crossword on the plane? That's what he was doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:49

Was he?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:50

See?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:50

Only thing I remember.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:51

King after my own heart.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:53

Do you have a favourite?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:54

I ha don't have enough memories to recall.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:57

Okay. Who do you hate more? Alex or Henry?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:02

Henry, I think. I think I dislike Alex more because he was so convinced he was right about everything and like so like England sucks. But yeah, like couldn't reconcile the fact that where he was coming from just as bad. And then also was just completely misusing taxpayer dollars.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:25

That's so true. That was my main gripe. I think I liked Henry more, even though he was so boring. So probably Alex is my worst character.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:34

I think I liked Alex, but in terms of like who was better, I think Henry is better than Alex.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:40

Alex was sometimes funny.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:41

Alex was pretty insufferable though. I really rolled my eyes at one part where he's like, Oh, people people only go into politics for the wrong reason, but I'm I'm different. I and my mind actually want to help people. I actually care about people.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:58

It's just so self-righteous. Like, shut up, bro.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:01

Even though he's like striving to be the youngest so-and-so, and I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do this. Like, you're really just doing it for yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:08

Yeah, this is all ego driven.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:09

It's a power drive.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:12

Okay, fellas. It's time, it's that time again. We should have some trumpets doing it now. To really drive it home. To drive that royal vibe home.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:26

Little shit. Shit. Shit. Shit, I think. Unanimous shit! Unanimous shit. Shit united. Which has not oh, actually, it's not been that long since. United States of shit. We had a unanimous shit for icebreaker, so it's true. It's not been that long. We didn't get too far, did we?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:48

It's really a horrific visual. We should get merch made that says unanimous shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:00

We hope that this episode red, white, and blew you away. As always, thank you for listening. The best way to support the show is to hit subscribe. So hit that button. And if you want to be on the same page as us and find out what we're reading next, follow us at talklit.gethit on Instagram and TikTok.