this man would not stop whinging - the ballad of songbirds and snakes by suzanne collins

do you ever feel like Coriolanus Snow, drifting through the world wanting to make it worse? do you ever feel, feel like collecting snakes, singing silly songs and poisoning some cakes? if you answered yes to either of these then boy, do we have the episode for you! join us and dive back into the world of the Hunger Games but 60 years earlier, when they are but a twinkle in the eye of everyone’s favourite tyrant, as we discuss The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes by Suzanne Collins. are you, are you going to listen?

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Transcript

Laura 0:00

Hello and welcome to Talk with Get Hit, a podcast where we read questionable books recommended to us by social media and talk shit about them.

Eryn 0:08

We're Bridget, Erin, and Laura, three friends who have mentally progressed since high school, where we bonded over a love of music and books, but mainly twilight.

Bridget 0:15

Brace yourself for a heady cocktail of somewhat highbrow and incredibly lowbrow wrecklings about all the books the internet loves and our journey to figure out why.

Laura 0:24

Welcome, welcome to the 15th annual Talk Lit Get Hit episode. This month we are reading the prequel to a series that presided over the majority of our teen years. Our October podcast pick is The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes by Suzanne Collins. Alrighty. Hello, hello. How have you been? I don't know what it is, but something about me saying hello, hello is particularly triggering to these two. They can't hold it together. I'm just a normal girl saying hello. Let's be real though, it hasn't really been that long since we caught up. So, I mean, apart from the pod books, I haven't read anything. Nothing to report on that front. World Cup update.

Eryn 1:04

Wow. I don't want to talk about any of the women devastated. Sorry. But I think you said pod books, but we only have one pod book for this month. But we all signed up for a bit of extra credit.

Laura 1:17

It was Bridget's suggestion. When we left podcast reporting two weeks ago, Bridget, who was the fastest reader of all of us, said, Oh, I reckon I'm gonna read The Hunger Games. And Aaron and I were like, Oh yeah, like only you could. Rude to flex, but okay. And then I thought, you know what? I really would like to do that. And so I started reading them and I was messaging the group chat in an absolute tizzy. These books were so much better than I remember them being. And I like it's been absolutely dominating my life in the lead up to reading the Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes.

Bridget 1:52

It's funny though, because I didn't even finish them. Um, I have been so busy with editing the last episode that like every night I've just been up really late editing it. I'm nearly finished catching fire. I couldn't remember anything though, so that was the reason why I decided to read them again. Still don't remember much of what's happening next. Which is good though. It's good that you're surprised by everything, so I'm happy that I don't remember.

Eryn 2:13

Yeah, same. I was surprised by how little I remembered of the original trilogy. I remembered really weird little bits, but none of the actual content. Like I remembered about the fault in the um The chink in the armour. The chink in the armour, thank you. I remembered about that, but I didn't remember why that was relevant or like how they found it or how they even used it to their advantage. And like I remembered big bits, like who died and stuff, but couldn't really remember how they died or why it was important, or I just remember people being sad about it.

Laura 2:46

Basically everything about it shocked me, because same as you, I remembered sort of basically what happened, but as I read, realised I remembered nothing. And I really remember being Team Gail, and I think that must have hugely been influenced by the fact that like Liam Hemsworth is very hot. When I started reading it again, reading The Hunger Games, from day one, I was like, Peter literally gives her the bread that gives her hope to live and to persevere. How can you ever compare to that? I'm a hundred percent team Peter now. I I don't know if that's a controversial take. I have no idea, but I won't hear anything against Peter. He's he has my whole heart. At the end of the books, oh my god. I had a crying hangover. I was I sent like 50 photos of myself crying to the group chat.

Eryn 3:35

Um, I don't think that's controversial at all. Most people hate Gail. Oh, good. Because I was Team Gail the first time as well. Because I think at that point I hadn't learnt that friends to lovers sucks. But in reading it the second time, I don't think I am firmly one way or the other. I am team Katniss being happy over either of the guys. Although I think that it was justified, well justified, why she chose Peter in the end.

Bridget 4:02

When did you first read these books?

Eryn 4:04

Laura and I read it around the same time the first time, which I want to say was like 2012 maybe. That sounds right. It was after high school. Um, and so the movie wasn't out yet, so we weren't even influenced by Liam Hemsworth being hot because we didn't know he was Gale yet.

Laura 4:21

Okay, I think I maybe just thought he was a bad boy.

Bridget 4:23

So I read The Hunger Games in 2016, and then I didn't read Catching Fire or Mocking Jay until 2019. The part of Hunger Games that I consumed was the soundtrack, which is funny because I haven't seen the movies. There's a song that I really love. One of my favourite songs is Gail's song by The Lumineers. And so going into reading The Hunger Games for the first time, I was so ready to love Gail because of this song, it's so beautiful. But I hated Gail so much from the very first time I met him. I don't know why. And also I think that the time I read it was maybe around the time that Liam Hemsworth and Molly Cyrus um broke up. So I was pretty heavily influenced by that. Especially, I just remember this interview with Jennifer Lawrence, and I know that Erin, you hate Jennifer Lawrence.

Eryn 5:05

I definitely started with the hero day.

Bridget 5:07

But I do remember an interview around the time that Miley and Liam broke up, and Miley released Wrecking Ball. And it was when Jennifer Lawrence cut her hair into the pixie cut, and she was sort of like set like making fun of Miley and Liam. I don't know, in like a jokey way, but Liam was making fun of her haircut, and she said, So what I did was I just sang Wrecking Ball to him, and that shut you up straight away. And I I just remember that, and I think it was just a bit mean.

Eryn 5:31

It is mean, especially when, per the rumours, Jay Law was the reason that they broke up. Even recently, she went on that, I don't know, chicken wing show, whatever it is, and was like, ah, it wasn't me. It wasn't my fault. I don't know what happened. But like, why were you feeding it back then? Yeah, right doll.

Bridget 5:48

I'm always team Miley, so I think that might have clouded my judgment of Gail even more.

Laura 5:53

It was definitely reflective of what I thought a partner should be or what I thought a man should be at the time. I don't think I appreciated softness and kindness and like all of the things I think Peter embodies. I was looking for like a man that would like protect you at all costs, and like even if that meant like loss of civilian life or whatever, I thought, yeah, that kind of macho. I'm not that that's all that Gale is, but I think that I thought he embodied like a better partner.

Eryn 6:20

I want to interrupt and say I've done fact-checking. We did read it in 2012, and you were team Peter. You are a big fat liar. You sent me, and I quote, I have read The Hunger Games and Catching Fire, and I'm just starting mocking Jay. I'm totally addicted, and Team Peter. Fuck off, Gail. No, no, no, no, no, no. And and you're gonna want to take this one back. Katniss is such a bitch.

Laura 6:53

I see why I thought that. I see why I thought that. I had, I was only 18 years old, you guys. I was just a baby. I've grown.

Eryn 7:02

Finnic also needs to be yours per these messages.

Laura 7:07

What can I say? I was a thirsty girl. Ew, it made myself sick when I said that. I stand by it. I love Finnic to this day. So we all enjoyed the Hunger Games, and I think this will be a really important part of our discussion because even though it is a prequel, was published after the fact. And so obviously, you're coming into reading this with a lot of prior knowledge of what pans out in the games, um, and a lot of knowledge about the main character, um, Kari Alanus. Emphasis on the anus. Snow. And so I guess with that in mind, what were your initial thoughts, expectations, hopes, and dreams heading into this book?

Bridget 7:52

So I decided that I would read The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes before I went into the Hunger Games. I'm not really sure why I thought that, but I I don't know. I was pretty excited to read it, and I thought it would be cool to read it in chronological order instead of release order. I didn't really know much about it. I haven't seen it, the trailer or anything about it. I didn't know who it was about, and I couldn't really remember anything about President Snow either. So I was really going in blind, which is I think a good way to go into a book.

Eryn 8:22

I reread the original series first because I knew I wouldn't remember anything that could potentially pop up as like an Easter egg in the prequel, and I wanted to be able to get those references and be in that like Leonardo DiCaprio meme, like pointing at the TV. Like I get that reference. I smashed four books in one week, which is fucking unheard of. I can't believe I've done it, and it will never be done again. But I was excited for the prequel because I love a villain and I love a villain story, and that's what I thought we were signing up for. I actually forgot that this happened, but in Mocking Jay, Finnick reveals a lot of the rumours around Snow. And so once I listened to that bit in Mocking Jay again, I was like, shit, yeah, the prequel's gonna explain some of this stuff, or we're gonna see some of this nonsense that Snow gets up to and kind of create our own theories around the like bleeding mouth and this and that. And so I was really excited to see more about a bad bitch. But yes, like Bridget, I hadn't really seen the trailer, didn't really know what we were getting into. I just knew it was about snow.

Bridget 9:30

What are the rumors at Finnick?

Laura 9:32

Oh my gosh, it's such a good thing. Should I just wait? No, well, I think it's worth it. I think it's good to talk about because it's such a juicy detail, and I think you'll still get shivers up your spine when you read it in the book. But like, you know how snow always leaves the rose as a calling card for Katniss. And when she smells it, she's it's talks about like the mingled smell of roses and blood. And Finnick reveals this rumour that one of his ways that he got to the top was by poisoning his enemies. Um, and to avoid suspicion, he drinks the poison himself and then quickly takes an antidote, but it does have its effects on him and leaves him with like open wounds in his mouth. And that's why she smells the blood, and that's why he always has the roses to mask the scent. We did derail ourselves a little bit, but I'll just quickly share my initial feelings as well. So basically exactly the same. I actually had watched the movie trailer, so not exactly the same as you, but I'd watched it quite a while ago, so couldn't remember who exactly it was about, what it involved. I sort of remembered seeing a vaguely romantic element, so I was really confused about that. And as I was rereading The Hunger Games, I was like, I'm not gonna look up anything about this. I'm like 60% sure it's about snow. If so, how can she make a book out of this? Because I'm not really interested in hearing what that rat has to say. And then I couldn't remember if he had like some sort of redemption arc at the end of the Hunger Games. I really couldn't remember at all. So I was super, super intrigued to read the book. Didn't really have a lot of info to go on.

Eryn 11:05

A word of warning before we proceed any further. Spoilers and rude words are within this episode, although we have already spoiled the Hunger Games series. So sorry if you haven't read it. If you'd like to avoid any further spoilers or rude words, now is your time to hop on out. So trigger warnings for this book and this episode include violence, child abuse, neglect, emotional abuse, and drug use.

Bridget 11:28

It is the morning of the reaping that will kick off the 10th annual Hunger Games. In the Capitol, 18-year-old Coriolanus Snow is preparing for his one shot at glory as a mentor in the games.

Laura 11:40

The once mighty House of Snow has fallen on hard times. Its fate hanging on the slender chance that Coriolanus will be able to outcharm, outwit, and outmaneuver his fellow students to mentor the winning tribute.

Eryn 11:51

The odds are against him. He's been given the humiliating assignment of mentoring the female tribute from District 12, the lowest of the low. Their fates are now completely intertwined. Every choice Coriolanus makes could lead to favour or failure, triumph or ruin.

Bridget 12:07

Inside the arena, it will be a fight to the death. Outside the arena, Coriolanus starts to feel for his doomed tribute and must weigh his need to follow the rules against his desire to survive, no matter what it takes.

Laura 12:21

Alright, I feel like we all have a million thoughts bubbling over, ready to just straight up erupt out of us. Um, but if you could just give a simple summary, now that we've all finished actually reading the book, how do you feel about it?

Eryn 12:33

Shut the fuck up.

Bridget 12:36

Oh. But you know what? I think it's because I don't know what he did in the Hunger Games.

Laura 12:49

This is a really interesting point because this is something I I'm very happy you read it first and we had the opposite experience. I think it will be a really interesting thing to talk about. My sentence is I'm confused. No, I reckon I can do a better one. Um, I reckon that pretty much is it. Brown had people over last night and I was finishing the book. And so he told them, Oh, Laura's just finishing the book she's doing for the podcast, she'll be out shortly. And then when I finished it and went out, everyone was asking, What did I think? And I was like, I don't like it. I didn't like it. It was really disappointing. And then I've woken up this morning and I've basically done the Brittany Broski like kombucha theme. And I'm thinking, okay, not the best, not the worst. And I will elaborate on that later. This is suspense. I really liked it. I thought it was so good. You did message the group chat saying, like, ho ho ho, if you like the hunger games, buckle up.

Eryn 13:55

Well, you set my expectations pretty high.

Bridget 13:58

I'm sorry about that.

Eryn 13:59

But I was just gonna say, not to blame you, but it's your fault I'm disappointed.

Bridget 14:04

Oh well, I had a good time.

Laura 14:05

It was really interesting reading it though, because I had the thought, like, oh, Erin really loves villains point of view. And so I was thinking of you when I was reading this, and then I knew that you were enjoying it, Bridget. So I was sort of like actively looking for what it was that you would be liking. I don't not to say that I I really did like elements of this book, like not at all to say that there was nothing I didn't like about it. And it it's definitely the same as a lot of books where I'm sitting on the fence. I think I'm ultimately gonna come out saying that I liked this book because it's still with me, like it's still very much in my brain, and I'm really, really mulling over the events and like what it all means. Yeah, I I couldn't pick like what the flavor was that you normally enjoy in books that you would be enjoying in this book.

Bridget 14:53

I wasn't really into the Hunger Games that much when I read it. Like I, after I read the first one, there were three years in between reading the next one because I just wasn't really that interested. But I liked his practicality. Sometimes when you read books, especially fantasy books or dystopian books, it's it's really dramatic and they're trying to be someone that you just can't imagine. But I feel like he was just like, yeah, like things are bad, but I'm just trying to survive. And you could see the hints of his insanity and madness, and then at the end he just snaps. The whole time I was thinking, how does he turn into what I seem to remember him being? And I just really enjoyed him at right at the end when he was running through the forest. And I thought that was incredible. It blew my mind about how he just snapped and how I could just clearly see now this is how he turns into this monster. Even though there were moments along the way, but he was still grappling with his morality, sort of. But another thing I thought I liked was just to see how like crappy the Hunger Games was. Like it's transformed into this really sophisticated, expensive, glamorous thing. But the 10th Hunger Games was terrible. The set was falling apart, everything, nothing went right for anybody. And I just really enjoyed seeing the comparisons between how I remember the Hunger Games having these like engineered weather events and these mutated animals and stuff. But this was just really just the Aldi version.

Eryn 16:25

It was the Aldi version.

Bridget 16:27

And I I could just see his mind trying to think of how he could improve on this experience and how he fed the tributes, like he made sure they were fed, he made sure they were comfortable, they weren't arriving in the cattle in the capital in a cattle train or something like that. I liked seeing those differences and seeing, okay, well, this has how it can be better. And he like he does his job very well.

Laura 16:49

Can't fault him there. I agree with that as well. I I wasn't expecting to be reading a book about a capital at this period in time where they are not completely back on their feet after the war. And I was really expecting that, yeah, like really glossy high-tech version of the Capitol. And so it was interesting to read that version where they literally are having the games in a ruined arena and they haven't thought of these things about like how can we actually monetize the games? It's not as exploitative as it ends up being, I suppose, although obviously it's still very bad. We do not condone the Hunger Games. Um, yeah, I thought that was really interesting because I I was expecting it to be like the same. I guess I didn't even bother reading that it was gonna be the 10th Hunger Games.

Eryn 17:36

I would agree. I think there are moments in this book that I really enjoyed, and I think his pragmatism is one of them. I also really liked the basically the shit Hunger Games, but I found it confusing, and maybe it's because I was listening to the audiobook. I found it confusing because they would talk about being in the arena, and then the arena got bombed, and the games were on, but then they were staying in at an academy and they weren't in the arena, and I was just getting kind of confused about were the games actually on, what was actually happening, because they were just moving around all the time. And I guess that's because they didn't have everything ready, and like you said, the arena was bombed and not really um in a state. And then when Old Mate was able to break into the games, I was like, what the fuck is going on? Listening to it, that was really disjointed and hard to follow in a way where if you're reading it, you would just flip back a few pages and be like, oh no, that is what's happening. Okay, it really is fucked up.

Bridget 18:34

And you probably also have a memory of what the arena is like in the new ones.

Eryn 18:39

Yeah.

Bridget 18:40

Because in my mind, it was like the Coliseum. So it was just like a like a little arena in the middle of the town and someone had bombed it.

Laura 18:48

Well, I suppose it's taking place in a time where there are a number of capital citizens, like even the academy students that are the mentors, are grappling with whether it's even right to be holding these games. Many of them are on the fence about whether it's a screwed-up thing to be doing or not. And so I think that's probably reflected in the level of security and like how much effort they're putting into it. And like you said, they they're all over the place because it's not a high priority for the Capitol citizens. They don't have a purpose-built place for these games and like the Tributes Tower and you know, the big stadium where they do their interviews and things like that. So yeah, it was a little bit jarring to read that because I just sort of always expected the Hunka games to be perfect from day one.

Bridget 19:38

I think maybe it was a bit more realistic than the 75th or wherever that they're up to in the main books because there wasn't that many like alterations of people's bodies or there were a few modifications of the animals, but this is something that could happen in real life. So I think I liked that connection to reality.

Eryn 19:57

I guess as we've been talking about it, I think they've never put security up until the 10th one because no one is willingly running into the Hunger Games to do anything about it. And there's so much of that stuff where like a sign doesn't exist until someone's done the stupid thing that prompts the sign. And there's so much of that in this actually, now that I'm thinking about it, because when you compare how well they're treated when Katniss and Peter first get drafted and they're on the train and they get stuffed with food and all the things. But in this one, you've got tributes that are dying before they've even made it there because they're starving or they've got tuberculosis and nobody knew they even had it. So it is cool to see how it's trial and error. Like trial on human lives, which is fucked. Trial and error on how the games develop into where it ends up. I just think the way it was written did make it a little confusing for me as a reader, following what was actually going on compared to showing us the hot mess that was the Tenth Hunger Games in a way that I could easily keep track of.

Bridget 21:01

I also really enjoyed the evidence of how propaganda has worked on these people. They just blindly accept that the district children are below them. And a lot of them were born during the war or they're, you know, very young during the start of the war. And that was so interesting to me how you can just be so utterly brainwashed. None of them questioned it until it sort of started affecting them. And none of them even thought I should feed this starving person until Coriolanus did, and then they saw that he was getting attention for it. And it I just found it incredible the descent of humanity and morality. But it's so believable. It could happen at any time, and it does happen around the world now.

Eryn 21:42

Definitely. And what's interesting about it is it's not that he feeds her out of the good of his heart, it's that he feeds her because he needs her to up his social status. Like in it's probably the first paragraph, he says that he is like no better than someone in the district. Because he's so poor and he's got no clothes or whatever it is. Like, his opinion of these people is already so fucking low. He's not giving them food that he can't afford himself unless it's benefiting him. And of course it's going to, because that's how he's hoping to get to uni.

Laura 22:14

Yeah, I really like how up like he always does tell you who he is. And I was doing a little bit of reading about Suzanne Collins, because as far as I know, she hasn't written too much more. I think she wrote a children's series, I'm or maybe another young adult series. And when I was reading this, because of my prior knowledge of the Hunger Games and who he comes to be, I was really struggling to give a shit about all of his monologue about how poor he was and how hungry he'd been and all of the terrible, terrible things he'd seen, like somebody sawing off another person's leg in the street, his cousin having to, well, alluding to her like having to prostitute herself or other like terrible things that might have happened to her. I just felt really disconnected. And I I thought that was interesting because I assumed that part of the purpose of this book was to show, you know, that there's two sides to every war. There's an interview I read between Suzanne Collins and David Leviathan from 2018 where she's talking about the just war theory and how it applies to the Hunger Games. And I do think it applies here too. The quote says, Just war theory has evolved over thousands of years in an attempt to define what circumstances give you the moral right to wage war and what is acceptable behaviour within that war and its aftermath. The why and the how. It helps differentiate between what's considered a necessary and an unnecessary war. In the Hunger Games trilogy, the districts rebel against their own government because of its corruption. The citizens of the districts have no basic human rights, are treated as slave labor, and are subjected to the Hunger Games annually. I believe the majority of today's audience would define that as grounds for revolution. And I mean, with that in mind, I think the Capitol citizens are equally justified in their feelings of hatred. If we're, you know, I think it's on par. But I just, I just couldn't get there because my preconceived feelings about Snow were so, so strong. I know he's a mean man. I don't know if it's necessarily asking the question of whether we can feel for or sympathize with a character like Snow. I don't know if that's like a major theme of this book, but it's definitely something that I was trying to figure out as I was reading it.

Eryn 24:25

Yeah, and I think Suzanne Collins gets a lot of praise, I think, for how well written The Hunger Games is in terms of reflecting reality back at people and helping people understand war and politics in a way or thinking about it in a way that they may not have otherwise understood it. I don't think her intention with this book was to make us sympathise with snow. I think it was to show us that what happened in the Hunger Games was a product of years and years of dissent between two groups of people, and it was just stacks on on both sides for years and years and years. Like, think about how Mocking Jay ends and sh with Katniss realizing that President Coyne wants to do the exact same fucking thing that Snow wants to do. Like, there is no better than, there is no good versus evil. It's just people with ideas and people who don't want to do what everyone else is doing. And I think this book does a really good job in parts of showing that Snow is already so fucked up from, like you said, the things he's seen and also the things he's being taught that he doesn't even give the people from districts a chance. Like he explains that Lucy is basically someone from the Capitol. Like, it's not that he loves a district 12 person, he loves someone from the Capitol who just happened to be there. Like his bias is already so clear and he can't even see it himself. He thinks he is being really generous with his time and with his money with her. Often that is the way it is. Like, people who we see perceive as quote unquote bad people often think that they are doing the right thing. And you see it as well with Gail in The Mocking Jay as well. Like he thinks he's doing the right thing by punishing the bad guys, but he's still just killing a shitload of humans and also people he cares about in the process, but it is somehow also justified. I think it it all comes back to like the concept of a just war and what makes a just war and like validating one side over the other. And yeah, I don't think this book is trying to validate anyone. I think it's trying to shed light on how we got to where we got to, because the history of the history is also important.

Laura 26:43

I do think that my enjoyment of this book was really, really deeply fuelled by my prior understanding of the Hunger Games. I think if I was reading this as a prequel, for me it wouldn't really be a book that entices me to want to read the rest of the series. I thought Snow was an interesting character, but I think for me at least, so much of this story only worked in the context of what we know about him. Like those fun little Easter eggs, like um The Hanging Tree or Ruse Meadow song or why he just wears roses or flips out about mocking Jays, those were the like little kind of moments that got me really excited about the book. The two things that I most enjoyed about the Hunger Games were how fast it moved. There was no spare words. It was just, it just moved so, so fast. And this book kind of, I found it just kind of like meandered, it was a little bit unfocused, it just went around and around and around inside his mind. And it just didn't really work for me in the same way. I just didn't feel like as much was at stake. Um, like those scenes where they're watching the tributes just sort of scratch around in the arena. That stuff was really interesting from Katniss's point of view because you feel like the stakes are so high, you're like, oh my god, like what's he getting out of the dirt? Is it a weapon? Is it a bomb? Like, are they coming to kill her? But when you're watching it from the outside, it just kind of felt like little chickens scratching around and you're just looking through the glass, which is a point in itself, but not really enticing for me.

Bridget 28:24

It is funny as well because The Hunger Games was written from Katniss's point of view, but this book was third person. So I don't know why that decision was made, but we weren't actually in his mind.

Eryn 28:36

That's really interesting to me because I found like Laura, I found this book to be really long, and we've been slammed for saying books are long before, but I think this is a justified comment about the length of a book. I say that all other comments are justified. Uh this book is very long and the pacing is really slow, but I also really struggled with Snow's point of view. And it's interesting that you say it's third person because I didn't really notice or pay attention, but it's still obviously centered around his feelings and stuff. By God, shut up. Like he's so annoying. Every time he's wanging on about how poor he is or how hard done by he is, and like I get that it's subjective and that what he's going through is as hard as it's ever been for him. But shut up. Like, either show show it to me properly instead of just whinging about it, or like give me something that I can actually work with there that does make me think, oh yeah, he really has suffered. Having or not having a shirt to wear to your fancy fucking private school is not suffering, actually. Especially not when your cousin is doing potentially unspeakable things just to get you a shirt so you can go and impress your private school friends.

Bridget 30:00

But I think the point of the book wasn't to feel any sympathy for him. I think it was just to show how, I don't know, unattached from reality he is, and all he wants is for himself to succeed. He doesn't even consider what Tigress was doing until she makes a comment later in the book. He has no regard for anybody else. And I think that's the kind of people that get into positions of power.

Eryn 30:26

I would agree, like we're not supposed to feel sympathy for him. And I wonder if that is why the third person decision is made, or why maybe I think it doesn't work, is because it's almost like an outsider is telling us he's struggled this much when he actually hasn't, and we're not seeing how it's impacting him, we're seeing someone else telling us it's impacted him.

Laura 30:48

For me, a reason why his struggles didn't hit home as well was because it never breaks down his ego. Like he's always got this obsession and this strife for power and this real pride about him, which is again something that was really interesting about his character, and I ended up ultimately liking that. But it I liked that about the book, but I didn't like him because of that. There is a quote on page seven, which is so early in the book and he's so upfront about who he is. It says, His mind could fixate on a problem like that. Anything really, and not let go. As if controlling one element of his world would keep him from ruin. It was a bad habit that blinded him to other things that could harm him. A tendency towards obsession was hardwired into his brain and would likely be his undoing if he couldn't learn to outsmart it. That's some nice foreshadowing. Yes, I think it really is. And then it really comes full circle at the end of the book when he reckons he's running away with Lucy, and all of a sudden, he's like, he knew this would be easier if he wasn't such an exceptional person, the best and the brightest humanity had to offer. Like his ego is unrelenting, and his drive for renown and power and control and recognition are just the one constant of this book. And I think although that made him repulsive to me, it was also like incredibly interesting to read. Or incredibly interesting to think about. It was, it dragged, but when I ruminate on it, I'm like, good points were made.

Eryn 32:27

Yeah, and I think also I struggle a little bit because I felt that in the Hunger Games he had a bit of like charisma about him and a bit of pizzazz that I felt was missing here. And obviously there's a big time jump between the stories, but he does think he's incredible and all these things. I don't know, he's not really got the kind of personality that even though he is terribly egotistical, I'm still drawn to him anyway. He's just not endearing to me or like appealing to me. There's nothing there that's really drawing me to want to hear more of his nonsense. He's giving incel, like, oh girls don't really like me, but I'm so great. Why don't they like me?

Bridget 33:12

Like he was so far removed from any sort of desire other than control. Because at no point in the book did he have any desire for Lucy or any other woman or man.

Eryn 33:25

Yeah, and he says it at the end uh as well that maybe he'll just marry someone he hates because at least then they're not gonna impact his life as much because he's not gonna care what happens with them or to them.

Laura 33:37

It's partly because he's not fully fledged snow yet, he's little baby villain, and it does kind of come off as incel neckbeard, like softboy vibes. Even like there's a scene, I think I have it highlighted, but when Lucy says something to him about how Peacekeepers shot her dad, and then he's like, Yeah, well, Rebels killed my dad. And then when they uh she apologizes to him, he's like, Sorry, baby, I just thought we were I just wanted to have a good time and you were ruining it, and like he just seems to be really manipulative in that kind of soft boy way, teenage boy way, yeah. You're right, yeah.

Eryn 34:21

In that sense, he is very true to the teenage boy form.

Laura 34:24

And he's he's being a villain in this really shitty, familiar way. But I would rather read about a villain that is like poisoning his enemies and has a rotting mouth, and like is in his lip filler error, as I saw one Goodreads review say. All credit to Goodreads reviewer, um Anonymous, because I can't remember.

Bridget 34:47

I think there was a point where he could have gone either way before he found out he was accepted into the training for leadership within the peace keepers. And I think it was still in his own best interest, like he was still acting on his desire to keep himself safe and Snowlands on top, etc. etc. But I think that there was a point where he considered changing everything for Lucy, but it was just so he could keep his control and hold on her. I think he was on the brink of his confidence, he was on the brink of his charm, but he was also on the brink of losing his mind. And I think when Lucy figured out his betrayal of Sir Janus, that was when he fell and he just committed. He fully committed, and he was like, Well, this is it, this is me now.

Eryn 35:33

I agree that I think that's the moment, but I actually think that it was when he realized he could get away with it exactly and all he had to do was kill her. That's nothing, he's already killed three people this summer. Like, what's the fourth one? And I actually loved the bit where he was like, Oh, I could do this and I could give it all up for her if I didn't hate it so much. Like, what a spoilt brat to be like, I hate being in mud and I hate putting worms on hooks. Like you and me both, brother.

Laura 36:04

Like, and he was out there for like five minutes.

Eryn 36:07

I know five seconds, and he's like, you know what? I fucking hate this. I like a bitch because it would be terrible to be there.

Bridget 36:16

And I just think he was such he was childlike. And I don't know, maybe it's because his parents died and his grandmother was a bit of a loose canon, but I just think that was the first time he'd experienced love like that in a long time, and it made him go a bit funny, and then he sort of came to reality when he was like, Oh, actually, I don't like this. I'm a I'm a rich kid at heart. I like being in the city, I like being able to dress hands, yeah. I like to be able to manipulate people, go back to your roots. Yeah, but I think my favorite part when he just fully committed to his villain agencies. Because he did he at least he thought about it. He thought about betraying Sir Janus, he thought about betraying like Lucy. I don't know. I thought it was so well done the way he just lost it.

Eryn 37:00

Yeah, I I really liked that bit where he could choose the good path and was like, nah, fuck it, I'm too far gone now.

Laura 37:08

And I think I I know I've complained about the book being really long and prattling on with his inner monologue, but I think it really does have to give that much time. If he's gonna snap and it's all gonna come together in the last 20 pages, um, it needs to spend a lot of time with his mind going to and fro and getting a little deeper each time. And I was gonna ask you this because I really didn't know which way it was gonna go. Um, I had some theories. Um, and because there is a line, I think he's talking to like Lissa Strata or one of like the other Academy people who is conflicted about the Hunger Games and feels bad for their tribute, but he has that line about where is the honour in participating in something that's not honourable. Um, and I thought, oh, okay. So like what goes wrong? Like, and I was having all of these theories, like maybe he hates District 12, like maybe he hates Katniss so much because somehow District 12 kills Lucy and he's like without his love forever. But then I was like, that doesn't really make sense though. Like, why would he commit to the games then? And then I thought maybe he was just like a straight up incel and she hurts his feelings, and then he's like, because uh because I couldn't get the girl, I'll kill everyone. But I really liked that it was neither of those.

Eryn 38:26

Yeah, me too. Because like you, I was also trying to plan ahead and be like, okay, how does this version of snow become that version of snow? And yeah, I think how they got there was really good and it makes sense. And I liked that every time he did something fucked up, it kind of justified the next fucked up thing he did, and it was just like stepping stones on the path to snow success.

Bridget 38:50

What you said about justification is so true, but he never tried to make excuses for his behavior, like he wasn't thinking, oh well, I had to do this because they did this to me. Like he accepted that he betrayed Sir Jainus, and he accepted that he was going to continue to take Sir Jayanus' family's support uh for the rest of his life. And who cares? That's what he thought.

Eryn 39:11

I'll do it if it gets me on top, I'll do it. And I think also the way he was able to justify it even when he was betraying Sir Janus and was like, well, Sir Jainus is doing the wrong thing, and I'm doing what I should be doing in reporting him. And when his family comes to me, that's fine because I need money and they don't have a kid anymore, and it's just the way it is. And like, Rhino King, pop off, have no regrets, have no guilt.

Laura 39:38

He's so pragmatic. I thought like there were interesting points throughout the book as well. Like, I have a quote highlighted here that says, so he added a paragraph about his deep relief on winning the war and the grim satisfaction of seeing the Capitol's enemies who treated him so cruelly, who'd cost his family so much, brought to their knees, hobbled, impotent, unable to hurt him anymore. He'd loved the unfamiliar sense of safety that their defeat had brought, the security that only could come with power, the ability to control things, yes, that was what he loved best of all.

Bridget 40:12

I think if you think about his behaviour and his justification for his behaviour through the lens of child development and trauma development after trauma, I think it makes a lot of sense. So in the development, child development sort circles, there's a lot of um debate about whether somebody's personality and somebody's I don't know, inner makeup is nurture or nature, and him being so young when the war happened, but also that trauma of losing his mother, who he did love, and his father, who he was indifferent about. But also seeing things like your neighbour sawing off the lead leg of a maid, taking it home to eat, just things like that. It really does stunt your development, and it's it makes you in a constant fight or flight or freeze mode. So I think his tendencies are quite realistic and valid, even though he's obviously an evil monster.

Eryn 41:10

There's actually so much we can garner from his family relationships, even though we only really see two of them. Because for a while there, I was like, why are we seeing so much about the grandma? That's weird, she's annoying. But you think also what we learn about his dad at the very end of the book is that his dad manipulated that guy into devising the whole concept of Hunger Games, submitted it even when he didn't want it submitted, and then died and let old mate deal with the consequences. Like the manipulation that needed to happen for that situation. Imagine that like tenfold in a family environment. Like, no wonder the grandma's fucked up, and no wonder Snow's fucked up because they've been influenced and been in this family-owned household with a master manipulator who can do shit like that without the people even knowing that that's what's happening. So there is that question of nature versus nurture there, and you can see elements of where it has been nurtured within him that he's seen it and he's adapted it, and he just he just be doing crazy shit.

Bridget 42:16

And then it's also in his nature. It's genetic because it's a little bit different. But even the plan for the Hunger Games that he submitted without speaking to his friends after the first mentor died, he went home, wrote the proposal, and then submitted it without telling anybody, showing anybody, and then that causes those repercussions with the snakes and his friend having to go to hospital, and that was brutal. That's the same thing his father did.

Eryn 42:40

Exactly. And he didn't even know his father had done it, and he had just done it himself. There was a lot of really great foreshadowing in this. I also really enjoyed the phrase snow lands on top. Not only because it echoes what we as a podcast say all the time, which is slay all day. It feels very slay all day every time he says snow lands on top. But I also really love it because even when he is about to die in mocking Jay, he wins because he is revealed that President Coin was the villain the whole time. Even though Katniss has her chance to kill Snow like she's always wanted, she kills President Coin instead, and he dies anyway. Like he still wins even in his death. Snow lands on top, always. And I really like that phrase, and I think it's an incredible like foreshadowing and through line for his whole journey. And also snow does land on top.

Bridget 43:32

Speaking of foreshadowing, we did a little bit of our own. I don't know if you guys actually realize it. So last month our book was If We Were Villains, and obviously a very Shakespeare heavy book. Uh, Coriolanus is actually the tragedy that we called the C One. So he is named after a Shakespeare character. It's a tragedy written by Shakespeare, and the play is based on the life of the legend. Legendary Roman leader Caius Marcius Coriolanus. And Coriolanus is the name given to the Roman general after his military feats. However, a major personality point for Coriolanus is he has extreme, immense disdain for the plebeians, and the mutual hostility of the tribunes led to his banishment from Rome. So even that follows his story follows the same story as the Shakespearean tragedy. Oh my. So he has extreme disdain for the people in the districts, and then he gets exiled. And then he leads them against Rome. So he becomes the leader. So she's very clever.

Eryn 44:38

She's a clever author.

Bridget 44:40

After he relents and agrees to a peace with Rome, he is killed by his pre previous Volskian allies. Little bit different, but still pretty much. Yeah, and how funny is that that we do it on purpose. Let's be brilliant.

Eryn 44:53

Okay, sorry, yeah, we did. I do want to talk a bit about the romance between Coriolanus and Lucy, which I think is a really good gateway into talking about Lucy as a character generally. And we've talked about it a little bit. I don't really get the romance. I wasn't rooting for the romance at any point. I didn't really see how Lucy liked him, or could kind of get why he quote unquote liked her because she was interesting and something he'd never seen before. But I couldn't really fathom the romance, and I actually was waiting for her to betray him because I thought she was faking it. Every time she kissed him, I thought that she was just trying to win his favor and get him to do her a solid as her mentor. And so when she kept like leaning into the romance and being like, let's run away together, I was like, bro, what? We weren't faking.

Laura 45:46

I was really surprised by that too, because yeah, like I like I said earlier, I thought he was just his origin story was that he flipped out because she was using him the whole time to get what she wanted. But there you go. Um, she seemed to be in it for the long run. What do you think? Is that how you read it, Bridget?

Bridget 46:02

My prediction was that she would be killed by people in the districts, and that's why he had such a hatred for the districts, even though he already did, but you know, ramped up, obviously. I couldn't remember what district Katniss was from. I was pretty sure it was district 12, but I didn't want to check in case I was, you know, right or wrong, I guess. I thought that maybe she was a descendant from Lucy Gray. Not too sure about that. But at the same time, when I was reading it, I didn't really feel like I knew Lucy Gray. And I think that's because Corey Alanis didn't really know Lucy Gray. And I didn't really care about her because I don't think he did. I think that's interesting.

Laura 46:38

That's a fair point. I think he didn't really care about her. He cared about where she could get him. And he wasn't interested in her until he saw that she was popular with the other mentors, with the other capital citizens. And maybe he got confused and he thought that that equaled love. But I don't believe that he really truly cared about her.

Eryn 47:02

No, I don't think it's romance as we have seen before in other books or even in the Hunger Games. Like it's no Finnick in Annie, that's for sure. As we've been talking about it, it's kind of coming to my mind that it's interesting that you say that we don't know anything about Lucy. Because I feel like she's always putting on her stage persona in the games and on stage, but even with Snow. So I wonder if I wonder if we're right in saying she doesn't actually like him because she's never actually being herself with him. And when she realizes that what she thought was favorable to her is no longer favorable, she gets out of there in the final scene. Like maybe we're right and she doesn't actually love him, and she's just like hitching a ride on the favorable train and seeing how far it takes her and just doing what she needs to do, playing that character until seeing how far it can get her, and then when it no longer serves her, she's just boop out of there because so much of her character is a character in itself. She's just pretending every time she's on stage, like, gee whiz, thanks, mister, for that.

Laura 48:02

I found her unbearably twe, just all her like, thanks, Darlin. Yeah, little chicken, Darlin Dumplin, kind of thing.

Eryn 48:09

Oh, shut up, Lucy. So much of it was like that though, and I think listening to the audiobook, a lot of the dialogue was really like 1950s, and I guess that's the time frame because again, we're at the the 10th Hunger Games, but I thought this was in the future from where we are now. So, how have we somehow in linguistics gone back to the 50s when in reality ballads of Songbirds and Snakes should be closer to us in the current time than the Hunger Games is in current time?

Laura 48:40

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. I and and because I sort of remember reading something in the Hunger Games that one of the districts, or possibly even the capital, was in quote unquote a place they used to call the Rockies. And so I was like, oh, alright, so what are all the other continents doing? Like what like not Hunger Games? Yeah, are they just like blasted off the map and only America exists? Or like I was really confused, and I'm still confused, and I have no answers.

Bridget 49:07

I did think that we were gonna get a bit more of that because I was thinking the same things.

Laura 49:12

Like, do we know? I was thinking, do we know about what happened here or am I just forgetting it? I will say as well, though, I really didn't like really give a shit about Lucy throughout the story up until her death. Death or or possible survival. I see that suspicious look you're giving me. Up until she disappears, as per the song. I really enjoyed the potential tragedy and power and legacy of that. Um, and something that I found particularly interesting was this quote that I read from Suzanne Collins. Because throughout this, I was wondering like, how in the hell does she keep a track of all of these characters and their family lines and their ridiculous names and like what districts they come from, and like in what order does it all just spew out of her? It's really interesting because in the Hunger Games, Katniss does mention something about oh, like District 12 has had um one Victor apart from Hamish, but like nobody knows anything about her. And so this quote from Suzanne Collins says, um, focusing on the 10th Hunger Games also gave me the opportunity to tell Lucy Grey's story. In the first chapter of The Hunger Games, I make a reference to a fourth District 12 Victor. Katniss doesn't seem to know anything about the person worth mentioning. While her story isn't well known, Lucy Grey lives on in a significant way through her music, helping to bring down Snow in the trilogy.

Eryn 50:33

I think, um, as I was listening to this, I didn't really think a great deal about whether I liked Lucy or not. Something that kind of hit me at the end of the book is that Lucy runs away from Snow, and I think this kind of feeds into the unknown quantity of whether she loved him or not, because she chooses not to kill him at the end of the book. Like she's killed people with snakes before, and the medics and whatever tell Snow that the snake that got him wasn't venomous at all. Like she could have killed him. She had everything she needed to kill him, and somehow still chose not to. Either that speaks to her character as someone who doesn't believe in killing when she doesn't have to, such as in the games, and even in the games she chose not to kill, unless she absolutely had to, or does it speak to her feelings about him more broadly? And then I think also it's important to think about that in the context of the theory that she is Katniss's grandmother. I don't know if you guys are familiar with this theory.

Laura 51:34

I've seen her a little bit.

Eryn 51:36

So she's described in a pretty similar way to the way the Hunger Games books describe Katniss, because obviously movie Katniss is a bit different to Hunger Games Katniss. And so they kind of look the same, they're singing the same songs, same district. It's fully possible, and I think I believe that Lucy is Katniss's grandmother. There's enough time there for that to be the way it goes. She's obviously got a community in District 12 that she wants to stay close to. But also her troupe is a traveling troop. There's no guarantee they stay in District 12, but they leave without her anyway. Like they're going their separate ways. So it's fully possible that she is the grandmother and she is planting the seed very early to be someone who puts love first, puts music first, because Katniss's dad is also really musical as well. And she it's that nature versus nurture again. Like, does she have the right genetics within her that eventually come up in Katniss?

Bridget 52:32

And so do you then think that Snow is aware of that and that's why Katniss was reaped?

Eryn 52:37

Well, see, there is also theory about this, and I don't know that I agree with this, but I've seen a lot of theory that Snow was already aware of Katniss before the Hunger Games and that they deliberately put Prim's name in the thing so she would volunteer because he knew what her potential was. I don't know that I believe that. I think obviously the peacemakers in the field or in District 12 were aware that she was kind of flaunting the Capitol's rule and doing whatever she wanted, but it served everyone there. So I don't think the Capitol actually knew what she was doing. I think once he saw her at the reaping and she would have looked like Lucy, whether or not they're related, she still looks and is described like Lucy. I think that would be the starting point. Once she starts singing Lucy's songs, that's when he starts going ape shit about her.

Bridget 53:24

And then even when she rocked up wearing the mocking jay pin, because those mocking jays just sent him into like a paranoia, like he's never had that before, and he was King lost his neurotic mind.

Laura 53:37

Yeah. That scene where he's like, You're not a mocking jay, blah blah blah. Like, yeah. And I love that. That was something I enjoyed so much about the book, like that art as a weapon kind of thing. Some songbirds and some lyrics from a girl he once knew would ultimately be his ruin. I really enjoyed seeing the origins of these songs. Even though I typically don't enjoy reading song lyrics in a book, I made an effort to read these, and I'm glad that I didn't skip over them because it turned out to be the most interesting part of the book.

Bridget 54:12

It's funny you say that though, because I listened to a lot of it as an audiobook and it was an interesting experience. So mine is giving nothing on the lyrics. My favorite, my favorite rendition in the audiobook was a section where there were a lot of la's, and it was just la la la, la la la, la la la la la la.

Eryn 54:36

Like he's a sim. Machino.

Bridget 54:40

Another thing I thought was really funny just about the audiobook. When I started listening, I was thinking, I know this voice. And I realized quite quickly where I knew the voice from. He also narrated you. Oh. So I listened to an audiobook of you. So he was Joe Goldberg in you, and he was so good at that. And I think he was good at this, even though the songs were didn't hit quite the same as they could have. But you know who else he is? Who? He's the evil guy in Frozen.

Laura 55:07

I did see that actually.

Bridget 55:08

He's the prince or I don't know what his name is.

Laura 55:10

What message is he trying to send us?

Bridget 55:12

Very interesting.

Laura 55:15

Do we want to talk about any of the other characters at all in this book?

Eryn 55:19

I think Tigris is interesting. Because it's obviously a throwback to the Tigris that we meet at the end of Mocking Jay.

Laura 55:26

Oh.

Eryn 55:27

Really?

Laura 55:28

Yeah, she gives them um shelters them during when they go to the Capitol. Wow.

Eryn 55:34

Yes. And so when she gives them refuge uh at the end of Mocking Jay, she has like an underwear store or something, and she hides them almost within the walls of her store. And she's described as someone who has undergone a shitload of like plastic surgery, actually looks like a tiger, does a lot of weird, almost animalistic things. I'm interested to see how we or know why that is the character that Suzanne Collins decided to make Snow's cousin. In reading Mocking J, I never really expected to see Tigris again. I thought Tigris was just kind of like a throwaway character. And I'm not sure why she was brought back to not really serve a huge purpose. It's not that she appeared particularly um rebellious or anything. If anything, she all she did was feed Snow's delusions of grandeur. And so I'm not sure why she was there. I don't know, I'm just not sure why that why it was her and not just some random other character.

Bridget 56:36

I think that she was quite sympathetic to the tributes, though. And I think that that was the only place that Coriolanus heard any empathy from anybody else. Like she was pretty concerned about Lucy Gray, and she thought what was happening was wrong. I think he he told her at one point, do not say this to anybody but me. She was voicing her disgust at the Hunger Games.

Eryn 56:57

But Sir Janus was doing the same stuff though, like providing that sounding board, and he didn't really respond in a similar way to him.

Bridget 57:04

But I think it's because Coriolanus didn't respect Serjanus.

Laura 57:07

I mean, she keeps him alive. She's the only reason they've had any income for the past however many years.

Bridget 57:14

And he's also got that connection to her from before his life turned upside down.

Eryn 57:18

I don't know, even thinking about it as we're talking about it, it's almost like she is his stylist team, or like she is to him what like Sinner was to Katniss or something. Like she helps build his personality or his persona. And something I thought worth noting as well is that she's his cousin, which from what I read was originally the plot for Gail and Katniss, that they were meant to be cousins until a certain other book that came out in 2008 did a love triangle and they changed Gail from being her cousin to being her love interest.

Bridget 57:52

Was that certain other book Twilight?

Eryn 57:53

I won't name any names. Don't be coy. And then obviously they use the cousin plotline in the Hunger Games trilogy. Kind of tongue-in-cheek. That's fine. Yeah. I thought it was interesting that Suzanne Collins was like, I want my cousin plot line, and I'm doing it properly this time.

Bridget 58:12

Okay, so Sir Jainus, love him. Little baby Sir Janus.

Eryn 58:16

I liked him too. I really liked that even though he could be a capital person if he wanted to, he didn't want to. And he still defined himself as a District 2 girly.

Laura 58:27

I thought it was funny reading it because I would say that I liked his character. But at the same time, even though I claim to not be sympathetic to Snow and hate having been in his head when Serjanus was out there like making plans for like a coup or whatever he was doing, I was like, stop screwing stuff up, you're gonna get everyone in trouble.

Bridget 58:48

But I was the same, and I think my feelings about Serjanus is obviously his heart was in the right place, but he did not have the skills to pull it off. He did not have the manipulation ability. He needed somebody like Coriolanus on his side. He trusted people too deeply.

Eryn 59:06

You could see that when he broke into the games to mourn his tribute. Like, no one else doing that shit. He's just too soft for what he wants to be doing. And it was really his unfortunate downfall that who he thought was his mate was actually against him the whole time.

Bridget 59:21

And I liked it because, you know, as so often in books we have good triumphing over evil, and he just could never win.

Eryn 59:29

No, and he tried so hard every time. Yeah. He got knocked down, he got back up again.

Laura 59:34

And I liked that his motivation was the direct opposite of Snow's. Like he didn't care about his status or his place in the world. He just wanted to do what was right. Snow was always saying to him, like, don't you care that you're capital? Like things are so much better for you. Like, why would you want to go back to that position where you're like rolling around in the mud, like begging for scraps? And he was like, Yeah, but it's wrong. Like it's just he couldn't abide it. And I think they're a good pair together.

Eryn 1:00:03

Yeah, they're foils of each other because they have this the same lives almost. They're both in the capital. Well, one's come up from poverty to the capital, one's come almost down from the capital into poverty, and they are mirrors of each other, and one chooses to be morally opposed to what's going on, and the other one chooses to morally justify what's going on. And it's interesting because their pathways, as the story goes on, just keep like diverting further and further away from each other, like branches of a tree.

Laura 1:00:35

The hanging tree.

Eryn 1:00:37

Oh my god. I do think it is a little funny though. He is still like a capital girly, as I said, or like a district two girly, and he's like, we're just so hard done by, even though District 2 is considered one of the like better off districts.

Laura 1:00:55

I think it's funny because they both have anus in there. I don't really have anything else to say about any of the other characters, and I think it's a completely different story to the Hunger Games, but I did find most of the characters like pretty forgettable. Like all of the Academy students, I don't have anything to say.

Eryn 1:01:17

I agree, and I actually think that's a good point to make. I think there are a lot of characters, and most of them served a second of purpose. And I would get distracted in the audiobook trying to remember if I'd heard of them before.

Laura 1:01:32

And like when he goes to District 12 and then they introduce a new character and then some nicknames for those characters, I was like, Icebreaker.

Bridget 1:01:42

It is funny though, because this is something that we do always sort of reflect on after we finish recording. Um, so I finished this book a week ago and Laura, you finished it last night, and Erin, you finished it this morning. I think I don't I just I wonder if the time frame that we read it makes a difference on how we feel about it. Because I didn't think it was too long and I I didn't get confused by the characters because I think I felt like I had more time to get through it. Like I wasn't trying to rush rush, and that is always something that for the last few books especially I have been rushing, and the length is like a always been a problem. Yeah. But like this time, there was I finished it last Friday night, and I didn't feel rushed.

Laura 1:02:28

Yeah, I think that's a fair point because I mean I finished it last night, thought I didn't like it, and as I've thought about it on the drive here this morning, I've gone, actually, that's pretty smart. And definitely bits that worked, even though you know I thought the guy was kind of a jerk. But I I definitely do think the Hunger Games did a better job of introducing someone for even a one-purpose use and just moving on with it. Like I I felt really confident with the Hunger Games that if someone was introduced, it was often like, oh, the boy, the boy from three, or like Katniss struggled to place his face, oh, it was so-and-so from blah blah blah. Like, and then that interaction would be done and dusted. But I think maybe because I was thinking at the same time about the Hunger Games, I also had this feeling of like, what's their significance in the universe? Like, should I be thinking about this, like and who they become and like who they could be related to?

Eryn 1:03:25

And and there were a lot of students, yeah, like yeah, and just a lot of characters that were all named characters, which I think doesn't really make sense with Snow either. Because I can't imagine he knows everyone by name, or like would care to know people by name. Like when you think about how Katniss referred to one of her opponents as Foxface for most of Hunger Games, that's what I imagine Snow would be thinking as well. Like, but I think these are the people that he's gone through school with, so he's known them for 12 years. Yeah, and I guess there's also the element where he has always been fighting for like their approval and stuff. So I guess he he needs to know their names. I just thought it seemed a bit odd. Even with like the peacemakers that he got stationed with in District 12, like I don't know, it's just odd that he was on name basis with everyone, even though I thought he was the kind of character that would kind of be above that or consider himself above that.

Laura 1:04:21

He is at the same time kind of like someone trying to win an election, like he's trying to charm you. I I picture him as like Miranda Priestley in that scene in The Devil Wears Pirata where um Andy and Emily are like whispering who's who into her ear. Like he he's always wants to have the upper hand and know everybody's business and play his little games.

Bridget 1:04:42

That's literally what I was about to say. I feel like he's the kind of person that has a portfolio of people and he keeps things that he knows he can use in the future.

Laura 1:04:51

Burn book, but a little dye.

Bridget 1:04:53

It's like a dentist that has a little, you know. So then when you go back to the dentist, they're like, oh, and how is the dog that you named? You know, they they know a little. I think he's that kind of person. He wants to know how he can use people, so he he's analytical and he remembers things.

Laura 1:05:08

Well, Sejanus said that to him. So I can't remember the quote exactly, but something to the effect of like, you always know more than you let on, and you pick your time to show what you know.

Bridget 1:05:23

And I think he is charming. He knows exactly how to play people, he knows what to compliment them on, he knows what the social rules are, he knows how to behave at a party, and he knows how to get what he wants. And it's only when he comes up against the big players like High Bottom or Dr. Gall, who is a horrible, horrible person. And even he's horrified by her, but he knows that he's met his match with those people because they have been doing the exact same thing for longer than he's been alive. So I think that's when he realizes he has work to do, but with everybody else, he's thinking, okay, I I've got this, I'm comfortable.

Laura 1:05:58

One of my favourite things about the Hunker. games was that whole cast of characters that have the potential to be named and never brought up again. But you have like I mean Peter Gayle, Joanna, um Finnick, Hey Mitch, all of these characters that are really flawed, really unlikable at points, um, and at points like antagonists to Katnits. Um but so moving and so kind and so good inside. And I mean, yeah, I suppose there's not necessarily a place in this story for characters like that, but I did miss them all the same.

Eryn 1:06:41

I will say I'm also glad that there was no attempt to redeem Snow in this. There was no justification for it. It was just this is who he is and this is how he became who he is and you're not gonna feel bad for him and he's not gonna redeem himself. Just is the way it is. There's no counterargument for him.

Laura 1:07:03

Well we've talked a lot about the Hunger Games. It's really really difficult to talk about one without the other but it would be good to talk about some of the things that either like we observed ourselves or we had to maybe search on Reddit to find the real meaning in. Obviously we have the characters that are relatives of people that crop up in the Hunger games so we have Hilarious Heavensby um who would be a relative of Plutarch or we've got Arachne Crane some sort of relative of Seneca Crane and then Lucky Flickerman and I mean I I enjoyed those nods even if it wasn't like you know incredibly meaningful to the story. But there are other really fun juicy elements that we get from this book. And I think namely for me that would be like the origin story of his mocking jay jabber jay smear campaign and the meadow song and also the hanging tree.

Eryn 1:08:02

And the roses. I really liked seeing where the the songs came from and understanding the context with which that they were written and I think it's crazy that Katniss sings them and they're about her district and she doesn't even know. Like she just sings them because her dad sings them. But they're about the meadow that has like served as her safe place for so long.

Bridget 1:08:24

Something that I really enjoy about Katniss is just how unaware of everything she is. She's always the last to figure anything out and I love that about her.

Eryn 1:08:32

She's so funny and such such a like 16 year old girl.

Laura 1:08:38

Like I love there's a bit in one of the books where she just completely blows up I think it's when she punches Peter in the face she's flipped out about it and then she's like actually you know what you were probably right my bad like five minutes later like my bad my bad sorry I cut your hands but yeah like it it really gets me going to think about like Rue's death and Katniss singing this meadow song which is a song that Lucy sings to Snow in this moment where it does seem like he's really feeling in love with her and he's really feeling connected and she's taken him to this special place that she goes with other people that she loves. And then to see Katniss in this like act of rebellion putting flowers around Rue and singing this song that he has to remember. I just think that's so juicy and so good.

Eryn 1:09:29

And it's incredible to think about him like up in his castle sitting on what I imagine to be a golden throne watching his fucking games sipping some tea or something surrounded by roses and just like silently stewing because he's just seen this bitch who keeps flaunting his games the whole time and now she sings the song that's probably haunted his nightmares for years. Like or just to imagine him like frothing about it would be incredible.

Laura 1:10:00

Something I saw on Reddit um talking about when Arlo I think is hanged and he says run run Lil run and I guess it depends what emphasis you put on it but some people were theorising that it matched the four note tune that Ruse district people sing to signal the day's done. They're like dun dun dun Oh my fucking God and I don't know if that's true but I love it a lot.

Eryn 1:10:29

Oh my god the mocking jays yeah yeah they take it and shivers up my spine oh my god I had no idea about this because like there's no way that they can police the mocking jays traveling between districts right like holy shit wow but I think that's a great theory like whether it stands or not I choose to believe it.

Laura 1:10:52

I just love I I really didn't understand his hatred for the mocking jays and the jabberjays for a long time and I was really thinking about it this morning. But but I guess like I all it boils down to is that he just hates them because he thinks they're like an abomination like he can't control them.

Bridget 1:11:12

Like he can't just defiance of the capital.

Laura 1:11:15

Yeah and he's just such a little square he just oh and I love that I and I I love that they ultimately become this yes symbol of hope and rebellion and they are everywhere.

Eryn 1:11:30

Obviously they're called mocking jays because of their connection to mocking birds but I also love that they their existence is literally mocking him.

Bridget 1:11:38

It's a mockery of everything the Capitol claims to be yes like he can't control it.

Eryn 1:11:43

It reminds him of his lost lover it reminds him of when he was like haunted by all those words like he is literally taunted by these birds everywhere he goes his whole fucking life like there is no freedom for him from these birds.

Bridget 1:11:59

And right at the end when he's running in the in the in the woods and the mocking jays are just repeating Lucy Gray's oh it's so good. That'll be great in the movie.

Laura 1:12:08

Yeah. One more cool thing that I saw that I that I also saw on Reddit was how he makes that hole in the fence to flee with Lucy. Some people were theorizing that it's the same hole in the fence that Katniss uses and I really love that idea that he's like inadvertently given Katniss like the freedom and the resources to she needs to overtake him.

Eryn 1:12:34

He created his own problem. Yeah which is what he's done the whole time anyway like all of this has come from his own actions anyway.

Laura 1:12:42

I mean he had a good innings as you would say.

Eryn 1:12:44

Yeah yeah like wow that's incredible because I didn't think about that either and didn't really pay a lot of attention as to how they broke out of 12. So that's interesting.

Laura 1:12:55

And it would also make sense in the context of the Capitol always knew that that's how they were sneaking out and stuff like that and how it was so easy and so fast for them to turn the fence back on when they decided they'd had enough another thing that was great about the ending but did leave me with some questions was thinking about the Hanging Tree song. So at some point in the book Snow walks into the meadow I think and Lucy seems to be crafting this song about the Hanging Tree which is a song that Katniss sings in the Hunger Games and it's a song that she's filmed singing and the Mocking Jays are joining in when they're doing one of their campaigns that is broadcast into the Capitol when their rebellion's in full swing and catching fire. Um and he's thinking oh how cute she's writing a song about that dude that got hanged yesterday oh little Lucy baby's so cute.

Eryn 1:13:56

And then when he starts slipping and he's really like it is when he runs away with her right and she sings the full song so she's singing the song at the end of her last like live performance and it's a clue to where they should meet up to do their runaway and he is like oh I would have preferred not to meet up at her old lover's rendezvous spot but that's fine whatever. And then he's um trying to figure out who the song's about and he's like oh the song the speaker in the song was Billy and he was singing it to Lucy. Which is interesting because that then begs the question of whether Lucy wrote it or Billy wrote it. Or whether Lucy wrote it from Billy's perspective.

Laura 1:14:40

Yeah that's what I was unsure about because I don't know I think Snow seems to think that Billy wrote it for Lucy and Lucy likes it because she still likes him and that pushes him to the brink a little bit further. I'm not really sure where I ended up on that but basically I was confused.

Eryn 1:14:59

I think that Lucy wrote the song and I think she was writing it I don't know just from a place of observation of the things that happen and it's um Snow's obsession and his um possessiveness that makes him assume that there is something else there. The same way that it's not just a meadow, it's the old lover's rendezvous point. He can't see her art without how it connects to another guy that may be competition to him.

Laura 1:15:31

Another thing that's great in the end as well is that repeatedly throughout the book Lucy Gray has repeatedly said it's not over until the mocking jay sings and then in that final scene obviously the mocking jays are popping off and so it does make you think is this the end whether it's like she's dead or not it's a pretty great little piece of foreshadowing for her conclusion there.

Eryn 1:15:59

Yeah and it's also iconic as well because like when does the start of the rebellion happen? When the mocking jay literally sings like yeah there was a bit that I remember from the audiobook but I don't know when it happens in the book part of Snow's like in a monologue he goes boo anyway do you guys remember that no I think he was really funny and you know who else I thought was really funny?

Bridget 1:16:31

Lucky what a what an absolute dropkick of a television host.

Laura 1:16:36

I love him so much what I love those magic tricks. One other thing that I saw on Reddit um never had an original thought in my life but um there's a quote on page 13 that says forgetting could lead to complacency and then they'd all be back at square one. And then at the very end of the book they mention erasing all records of the 10th hunger games. As seen in Katniss, most people have forgotten about Lucy Gray. Nobody knows who she is she's faded to obscurity. And they do become complacent. They learn their lesson the hard way.

Eryn 1:17:12

What does erasing the evidence mean? Does it just mean that they got rid of all the videos or were they erasing anyone who had anything to do with her? Like if they can't find her does that mean they get rid of anyone who remembered her or would admit to remembering her?

Bridget 1:17:29

Well I think the day after the game's finished there was no mention of it on the news they didn't talk about it again. It was like it never happened she returned to the districts and I think also it was able to be erased because the only people that watched the Hunger Games at that point were the people in the Capitol. The districts people like the the peacekeepers in District 12 didn't know who he was didn't know who she was didn't really care. Nobody watched it and I think that also his experience in District 12 it really shows what he took from that and how he improved the Hunger Games because everyone knows about it now. Katniss knows so much about it even though she's obviously not a supporter of it she knows what's happened in all of them she understands how it works but it's not the same that can't be said for the the 10th Hunger Games. No one was watching.

Eryn 1:18:14

Yet another thing that he does that bites him in the fucking ass everything he does is his downfall in the end.

Laura 1:18:21

He's such a big dum dum rat tail naked one other throwaway line from the book that plays into one of the theories that we've already mentioned is when Lucy Gray says Maud Ivory never forgets a song and I think Maud Ivory was the little one apparently or I mean I understandably fuels the theory that Maud Ivory may be somehow connected to Katniss or Katniss may be somehow connected to the cubby because Maud Ivory is a relative remembers Lucy's songs that she's sung and they got passed down um the line. I suppose it doesn't necessarily have to mean that she's related just that she spread the almighty word for teaching.

Eryn 1:19:08

Let's start wrapping it up then so we'll start with favourite characters. What do we got?

Laura 1:19:12

I would actually say although we've not spoken about her an inch I I really liked Dr. Ghoul because I just think she was nasty and terrible and I really shuddered to think what she would come up with next. I just think she was shocking and I really enjoyed reading whatever came out of her mouth. Who's your favourite character Bridget?

Bridget 1:19:32

I think my favourite character is Coriolanus but I also really did love Sir Janus. Poor little baby Sir Janus he was too pure for this world oh but I yeah I really enjoyed Coriolanus I thought he was just a he knew what he was about and what he was about was he was bad. Him being a bad bit a bad he's just a bad guy.

Eryn 1:19:51

I didn't think I had a favourite character and I certainly like Snow in this book a lot more now after kind of debriefing and being able to sit on it a bit. I think my favourite though is the professor that's addicted to morphling high bottom yes cask high bottom I really liked him I liked his addiction and that he just seemed like an arsehole for no reason especially from Snow's perspective and then when you get to that final scene with him at the end and you find out that the reason he's such an arsehole is because Snow's dad fucked him over and he can see in Snow everything that he saw in his dad like just wrapped it up so perfectly and suddenly all the bad things that Highbottom has done now makes complete and total sense. So I think he was my favourite character. He had such a a good character arc.

Bridget 1:20:44

I also love his demise.

Eryn 1:20:46

Oh yes and it's so simple as well like Snow's like well poison that guy and just iconic as well to do it with the same thing that you were caught for smuggling into the games as well like the fact that it's literally rat poison as well. Rat rating it's time it's time it's the most important question of the day is the Ballad of Songbirds and snakes by Suzanne Collins lit or shit Bridget lit Laura lit I also think it's lit. You guys have swayed me heaps I think it's lit.

Laura 1:21:25

It's unanimous once again the lit have it that's two episodes in a row snow comes out on top oh my god snow's on top I would say it's a soft lit but overall I enjoyed it and I think if you're a Hunger Games fan you will find something really interesting and um a little bit juicy and and saucy in this.

Bridget 1:21:51

And with that we have come to the end. Please make sure to let us know how you felt about this episode and also support the show by hitting subscribe. If you want to stay on the same page as us you can follow us at talkplit.get on Instagram and TikTok.

Laura 1:22:07

And may the odds be ever in your favour another of my early party tricks was to peel the skin off a Cheerio and put it on my nose and breathe in and out really fast. I think Dad was like do the Savoy trick do the Savoy trick disgusting I don't really need that attitude from you but