is bella swan the WOAT (worst of all time)? - new moon by stephenie meyer

It’s a beautiful night, we’re looking for something dumb to do, hey baby, this episode is on new moon~~ that’s right, it’s already episode two of our twilight megamix extravaganza! this episode we do a deep cliff dive on new moon and ponder if a teenager should be trusted with motor mechanics, why bella needs a reality check and are gaslighting and manipulation okay if they’re done to someone you love (spoiler alert: they’re not). this journey is boggling our minds so check your alice love at the door and get your slapping hand ready, listeners, because we’re having hysterics!

synopsis music: for when it rains by juan sanchez

special things mentioned in the episode:

• twilight personality quiz
• timeline from twilight lexicon
• new moon playlist from stephenie meyer
• near to you by a fine frenzy
• almost lover by a fine frenzy
• haunted (taylor's version) by taylor swift

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theme music born from the creative genius of Big Boi B.

join talk lit, get hit podcast for deep dives into the hottest BookTok recommendations, trending contemporary fiction, and literary favourites! each episode features book discussions, spoiler-filled chats, and thoughtful literary analysis of novels everyone is talking about - from viral romance and fantasy to modern classics. whether you’re looking for BookTok book reviews, author interviews, or a virtual book club experience, out podcast is your go-to space for readers who love stories and want to explore them in depth.

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Transcript

Bridget 0:00

Just like to say before we get started, this is my favorite Twilight book.

Laura 0:04

Is it?

Bridget 0:04

Yeah.

Laura 0:09

Hello and welcome to Talk with Get Hit, a podcast where we read questionable books recommended to us by social media and talk shit about them.

Eryn 0:17

We're Bridget, Erin, and Laura, three friends who haven't mentally progressed since high school, where we bonded over a love of music and books, but mainly Twilight.

Bridget 0:24

Brace yourself for a heady cocktail of somewhat highbrow and incredibly lowbrow ramblings about all the books the internet loves and our journey to figure out why.

Laura 0:32

We are back with part two of our Twilight Saga Mega Mix Extravaganza. This episode, we're reading a book we are forbidden to remember, terrified to forget. To say that we are not excited to talk about this book is the very blackest kind of blasphemy. We are, of course, reading book number two in the Twilight Saga by Stephanie Meyer New Moon.

Eryn 0:54

Typically, we would do the like monthly wrap-up, but this time we're gonna do something a little different. And we're gonna do a little which twilight character matches your personality quiz.

Bridget 1:08

Yeah, in true like 2008 style, we're gonna do a BuzzFeed quiz.

Eryn 1:12

I'm so excited for this. I love personality quizzes. I miss like why aren't there any in adult life? That's what I want to know.

Laura 1:21

Some on TikTok. I'm ready to take this to heart.

Eryn 1:24

I'm fully ready.

Laura 1:25

For those of you that want to do this, uh we are doing the Everyone has a Twilight character that matches their personality. Here's yours quiz on BuzzFeed from the 25th of November 2018.

Eryn 1:37

So the first question is to pick an animal. I think I'm gonna pick the bear.

Laura 1:42

Oh my god, me too! Ooh, I'm gonna pick whatever that freaky looking cat is. It's a large.

Bridget 1:47

I think it's a mountain lion. So pick a destination is next.

Laura 1:51

I will pick Tokyo because I am going there soon. And I'm not that imaginative.

Eryn 1:57

I'm gonna pick New York. I'm gonna pick Paris because I just went there. And I'm not imaginative either.

Bridget 2:06

Oh my god. Okay, the next one is pick a car, and I'm I'm thankful we're not describing these.

Laura 2:11

I'm gonna pick the red and white one that looks like it could be in like a 1950s milkshake kind of grease lightning.

Eryn 2:20

I am going with the red truck. Okay, pick a hobby. These are all terrible.

Laura 2:27

I'm gonna pick hiking.

Eryn 2:29

I'm picking gaming.

Laura 2:31

What about baseball?

Eryn 2:34

I'm gonna pick cross stitch.

Laura 2:42

So true.

Eryn 2:44

I can't wait to buy you some cross stitch. I do actually really love it. That's so cute.

Bridget 2:49

I haven't done it for a few years, but I when I was a kid, I used to do a lot and then like it. I did it a lot as a kid too.

Laura 2:55

Anyway, next one pick a house. There's one that kind of looks like Iris' house in the holiday. It's kind of cottagey vibes. I'm gonna go with that one.

Bridget 3:04

I'm gonna go with the cottage one as well.

Eryn 3:07

I will go for the only one that looks like it doesn't have stairs.

Bridget 3:12

Okay, next one is pick a coat and honestly slim pickings, is they're all terrible.

Eryn 3:17

I'm gonna go for the one with the fur-lined hood. Cause I get cold. The Parker.

Laura 3:24

That's so Bella Swan, babe. Oh shit. I don't want to get Bella.

Bridget 3:29

You can't change it now. Dang it. I'm gonna go for the flannelette looking one. And I'm gonna go just for the basic bitch like Inspector Gadget trench coat. It looks pretty good. Okay, the next one is pick a musical instrument.

Eryn 3:43

Oh shit, yeah. I'm going recorder.

Bridget 3:45

Laura has to go flute.

Laura 3:48

Um, full disclosure, I mimed in pretty much every Did you really? I'm so shit at playing the flute. Amazing. I love that. I think I would pick probably the piano because that's all I really have in my repertoire.

Bridget 4:05

I might go drums because that's my most recent addition to my repertoire. Ooh, flex, okay. Okay, next one is pick a job. I'm going Instagram influencer.

Laura 4:17

I think I'm gonna go with actor. That's a bit of a dream. Ooh.

Eryn 4:22

Oh, is this the last one? I don't want to tell anyone mine. I'm gonna pick doctor because I would never do it in real life.

Bridget 4:32

I have a good one. I don't. What did you get? Esme.

Laura 4:38

Me too. What is the description? I will say it's very accurate.

Bridget 4:44

You're incredibly caring and love spending time with your friends and family. You love deeply and are loyal for life. This is a bit of a slam at the end. You're also very sensitive and cry at the drop of a hat.

Laura 4:57

That's the bit that made me be like, oh yeah, that's me.

Bridget 5:01

That's very funny.

Laura 5:02

Who'd you get?

Eryn 5:03

I got Charlie. You said you were gonna get Charlie. And it says, You're tired and kind of done with the ridiculousness around you. What you don't realize is how much people love you. You're basically the best person in the world. Well wow, that's a great one. And it's true. I'll stop, you kiddies. So screenshotting that, making it my whole personality. I'm pressing retake immediately. That was excellent. I'm glad we did that. I feel rejuvenated.

Bridget 5:37

I'm glad you're happy. That was so caring of you. She's a wet sock. Not even wet. She's a dry sock.

Laura 5:46

How dare you! Her super strength is her care. So, once again, with this book, we've already read it, so we already have some expectations heading into it. But can you remember um how you were feeling at this point in time reading this book, aged 14, 15, whatever it was?

Eryn 6:03

No, I have no recollection of the book prior to rereading it. I remember reading it at the breakfast table like before school, but before rereading it, I couldn't have even told you what it was about.

Laura 6:14

Yeah, I might stop asking you that question in the future.

Eryn 6:18

I'm sorry, and it's true for Eclipse and it'll be true for breaking dawn. I do not remember these books.

Laura 6:24

It is a shocking revelation because I just feel like we all talk about Twilight so much that I assumed that we'd all flog them to death.

Bridget 6:30

I was at that point just in a craze, like a newborn craze.

Laura 6:34

And I just wanted to get it read. I was in the craze as well, and the only reason I remember it is it was school holidays, and I was at my grandma's house again, and I remember being super proud because it was like almost the fastest I'd ever read some books, and same as you with Twilight, I thought it was so adult, but I stayed in my grandma's like middle bedroom, and I remember I didn't like really eat or drink for maybe the week or whatever of school holidays. I just read and read and read and read, and I remember my family essentially doing like a welfare check because I just was so completely absorbed by these and like refusing any other connections. Uh so that's why I remember it because I I was honestly so sucked into the the world, and I remember thinking, why are they talking to me like that?

Eryn 7:20

Because you trauma bonded in you. The only thing I remember is Jacob Black, and I remember not liking him the first time.

Laura 7:30

Fair assessment. What about the second time around? So we just obviously had finished reading Twilight. How are you feeling heading into book two?

Eryn 7:40

I was hoping that it got better. Because I remembered vaguely that something happened to make Edward try and kill himself, but I just had to remember what it was that prompted all that. And so I was like, okay, well, I can't wait for something to actually happen in this book. I was really quite excited to continue reading these books.

Laura 8:03

I'd forgotten more about Twilight than I expected to, and so I was pretty sure that there'd be heaps of stuff in this book that I didn't remember. I will say that I found myself quite embarrassed to be reading this book in public in a way that I didn't expect. Like, given that we've read like Icebreaker and I don't know what The Love Hypothesis. Like, those are embarrassing books to be reading in public. Like, if we're gonna put Twilight in that category, like those should be in there too. And I think what it was was I was really self-conscious that people thought I was reading it for the first time, and I wanted so badly to be like, no, you guys, I I already know all about this.

Eryn 8:42

I'm not just discovering it, it's uh it's a joke with me and my friends anyway, or like have them think that you're like taking it really seriously and you love it and you're like absorbed in it. Like, no, guys, I'm just reading it like ironically, it's fine. But like, I mean, I was enjoying myself overall, so were you excited to come back to your favourite Twilight book?

Bridget 9:05

Definitely. I think I remember, I remembered everything that happened.

Eryn 9:08

I'm not surprised.

Bridget 9:09

No, neither am I. And I yeah, I was just really keen. I love how depressed she is in this book. That's just I think I just love it so much. I love sad things. I love sad songs, sad books. This is yeah, I loved it.

Eryn 9:22

One of the notes I have here is Bella is such a dumb fuck. God, her moping is unbearable.

Laura 9:30

Um my first note on Bella is Bella is utterly insane. Just shut up, please. So you're in for it.

Eryn 9:44

Radio. Well, if you like me don't know what happens in New Moon and you don't want to be spoiled, now's the time to check out. Otherwise, join us for an in-depth discussion on all the things I now know happen in New Moon. The content warning for this one includes themes of abuse, racism, mental illness, suicide, and violence. But as always, do your own due diligence on um checking up the content warnings. For Bella Swan, there is one thing more important than life itself: Edward Cullen. But being in love with a vampire is even more dangerous than Bella could ever have imagined.

Bridget 10:18

Edward has already rescued Bella from the clutches of one evil vampire. But now, as their daring relationship threatens all that is near and dear to them, they realize their troubles may be just beginning.

Laura 10:29

Alright, well, we simply couldn't help ourselves, so we've kind of revealed some feelings already. But I mean, book two is done and dusted, and how are you feeling in the wake of the reread? Just living life, loving life, laughing life, I guess. That is so that is really beautiful. Thank you. I am just like Esme, and that's moved me to tears. I'm crying now.

Eryn 10:50

What I like just going back to the quiz, how did my answers get me there? Like, what was it the recorder? Was it the Parker? Like, what got me to Charlie? I don't understand. I don't know either. Anyway, I feel good about New Moon. I really enjoyed it. I think it went a lot faster for me than Twilight. And I think that's partially because there's a lot more dialogue in it. So even though there's more pages, it's faster to read because it's not full pages of that flowery text. I am a Jacob Black convert. I am a Jacob Black stan. I thought he was great in this.

Laura 11:32

That is sickening.

Eryn 11:33

I know. I didn't understand it. Because I remembered being an auntie. I was not here for Jacob Black. But he was funny and he was nice, and I felt really bad for him. In this book, we're not talking Eclipse Jacob Black, because we know there's some character assassination that happens in Eclipse. I don't like him in this one much either.

Bridget 11:54

Neither. I think he doesn't understand boundaries. He knows how broken she is, but he insists on trying all the same. And I I just think I don't think she could be any clearer.

Laura 12:04

In this book. No, in this book he's crossing a line that she is like setting.

Bridget 12:09

She is constantly taking her hand out of his. She's moving away from him. He crosses the line so much. I don't like him.

Laura 12:17

I think we can talk about this more later on because we've already like completely derailed ourselves. Sorry. So before we begin, just the same as Twilight, um, I think we need to give the context of the period of time that this takes place over, because once again, it is just truly insane to behold. It's gonna be a little bit of a long one by me, but I trust me, you're gonna want to hear it. Twilight ended in May, and Edward and Bella have known each other for roughly five months at this point in time, and remember that was a generous five. So New Moon picks up on Bella's birthday, which is September 13th. Remember that Bella moved to Fork's just nine months prior. In an astonishing twist, Bella's birthday dinner at the Cullens turns into a near massacre, and then Edward ignores her for two days, and then on the 16th of September. My birthday! Well, three days after her birthday, he tells her that his family are leaving Fork's forever and he's going with them. Um, she has a total mental breakdown and she curls up in the forest, which is always the most excruciating scene for me to read. Um, and she waits for the end. Um and so for the months of October through December, she's in a fugue state, and then finally on the 16th of January, so about a year since she's moved to Forks, Bella goes to see a movie with some friends uh to get Charlie off her case and discovers that she can hear Edward's voice if she puts herself in dangerous scenarios. The next day, she buys two motorbikes and takes them to Jacob Black so that he can repair them. Nine days later, on the 25th of January, Jacob has done a very efficient job.

Eryn 13:53

Nine days repair the two bikes. I don't realize that that's the most shocking part of this to me so far.

Laura 13:59

It is, isn't it? Because it feels like it takes place over months and months and months. But on the 25th of January, he's repaired the two bikes. Bella crashes one of them and goes to the ER. Mercifully, she does manage to hear Edward's voice again, though, so it's not all bad news, guys. Bella and Jacob spend some time in February together, uh, and then they have another failed trip to the movies on the 20th of February. Um, and it's around this point in time that Jacob starts acting cagey and he stops picking up Bella's calls. He's got mono. That's so we're told. So we're told. On the 4th of March, Bella is still being ghosted by Jacob and she heads to the meadow uh and is almost slaughtered by the evil vampire Laurent, who is back for revenge. Um, but thankfully some massive wolves rock up and save the day. Jacob continues ghosting Bella and she continues to freak out about it. I think at one stage she calls the house every half hour, which is pretty unhinged behaviour. And of course we will be addressing that. Um on the 10th of March, Jacob sneaks into Bella's room and shares some cryptic goss about what's been going on with him, and the very next day, Bella has a magical realization that he's a werewolf. Six days after that, so we're now at the 16th of March. Bella jumps off a cliff and into the ocean. She hears Edward's voice and thinks how easy it would be to give up and die. So she knew he was a werewolf for six days. Six days.

Eryn 15:23

I think it's also crazy thinking about how the time that Jacob hasn't spoken to her for. That's like what? 15 days maybe?

Bridget 15:32

Yeah.

Eryn 15:33

Like, that's nothing.

Bridget 15:34

Also, she was in a catatonic state for three months when Edward left. They were only together for five. Not even five.

Laura 15:40

Not even five. Yeah. That's and like, okay, so three days after Bella jumped off the cliff, Edward has caught wind of the Cliffsidents and is on his way to Cliffsident! Thank you. I thought that was pretty good. Uh he's on his way to an extravagant Italian death. When an um I think that's what the saying means. And on the 20th of March, Bella goes to Italy, saves Edward from the sunshine, meets the Volturi, and gets the promise of an imminent vampire transformation. So a lot happening on the 20th of March. It's a big day. By the time this story wraps up, it's roughly been a year since Bella was almost killed by James, and Edward has been missing for six of these months. Um, so half of that time. Two days later, so after she's been abandoned for six months, Bella agrees to marry Edward, and that is where the book leaves us.

Eryn 16:34

It is truly, truly heinous. I cannot fathom this. This is in a time when contacting people was not as instantaneous as it is right now. And she flipped out over not hearing from Jacob for like 15 days or something. Like, it's insane. Yeah.

Laura 16:53

I can't get over the fact that he fixed the motorbike that soon. Doesn't that it feels like that takes place over such a long period of time? And this book just plods along in like such painstaking, mundane detail that it feels like these things do happen at a really slow pace.

Eryn 17:10

Yeah, and like they go on one trip to find the cards, and he goes, Oh, I think we have most of what I needed. How did you magically find them all? Why were they getting rid of them then if it was so fucking easy to fix them? That's true. That's true. Did they even try to get them repaired? We need to talk about the proposal later, but I thought it happened in eclipse. And so when it happened, I was like, oh what? What? You are 16 or 17 or whatever the fuck you are, like still in school.

Bridget 17:41

Child! To be fair, Erin, though, we were talking about a book. Yeah, there was a woman who was 29 and had been married for two years, and you said, Child bride! Sorry.

Eryn 17:52

I mean, leave my commitment issues out of this.

Laura 17:59

Shall we go through the characters? Let's meet them where they're at, you guys.

Eryn 18:05

We're with Bella. She's depressed, she has just been abandoned by her the love of her life for the past five months. She's not in a good way.

Bridget 18:14

I just think she is so dumb. And I just I don't even have any compassion for her because she annoys me so much. And maybe that's why it's my favourite, honestly, because she's suffering. She's really suffering. And I don't know, I sort of like seeing her experience the repercussions of her decisions and her actions. Like she fell so hard for this person she didn't really know, and she really got it thrown back in her face. And I don't know, maybe I like that. I'm not sure.

Eryn 18:41

To an extent, I like that. I like seeing it fall apart after how quickly it all came together. But I wish there was like a moment of critical thinking in here where she was like, Oh, maybe this is why you don't fall in love with someone after five months, and maybe this is why this action and that action were bad, and this is how I can work on myself, instead of just being miserable and being like, of course he left, he's far too good for me. I'm shit, it's all my fault. I could never deserve him. Like, shut the fuck up. I don't want to hear it. And I it's boring.

Bridget 19:19

Even before she gets to that point, I think I don't understand how she believed, and I think Edwards are the same thing. I was shocked when you believed me so quickly. Like, after everything I'd said to you, you believe me instantly.

Eryn 19:30

I hate that scene. How can he spend all of Twilight gaslighting her? And then she he abandons her, he makes a really good job of it, she believes him, and then he still makes it her fault that she was sad when he left. You asshole.

Bridget 19:48

I don't I don't feel like he did that, but I know what you mean.

Laura 19:52

He blames her. I'm kind of with you on this one, Erin, because I did have a note about how he said, How could you think that? And my note was, how could she not think that when you've literally spent more time away from her when you were only together for like five months? He spent more time putting a lot of effort into abandoning her than he ever put into their relationship.

Eryn 20:17

And it is so heinous to leave someone in such a cruel way and then be like, I can't believe you believed me. Like, it's your fault you were so sad when this happened because you're the dumb one that believed me when I said I didn't love you. Like, that's your fault. Like, bro.

Bridget 20:35

I've never thought of it that way. That's very interesting. I thought he was I in my head, he's saying, I can't believe you would believe that of me. Like it hurt him. He believed he hadn't done enough in those five months to convince her that she was his life.

Eryn 20:50

I mean, I think that's what it's meant to be. I think it's the same thing. I mean, I think he's saying, I can't believe you believed that when he felt that he had proven in quotation marks his love for her.

Bridget 21:02

I was thinking, like, she never thinks of it. But how many times do we have to hear the conversation where he's saying, I'm bad for you, I'm dangerous for you, and she's like, nah. Did she did it never cross her mind once that once again he's being the martyr? Yes, exactly. It's this it's I don't understand how she never even thought of that.

Eryn 21:21

Yeah, like it's like she forgets his behaviour the second that it changes to what she wants it to be. Because which is just revisionist history and it's fucked. But like, this is like when he treated her like shit, but when he was nice to her, she was like, Oh my god, thank God, finally. This is just the same shit, just on a bigger scale. This book really got me off Edward. Like, I was fuming about it.

Laura 21:43

Yeah, he's an asshole in this book. I was not enjoying either of the men in this book, but I was really anti Edward in this book, and spoiler alert, but the next one, he's doing himself no favours in my eyes as well. Um, and he really claws his way back. We start the book in a really interesting. Interesting and intense place. At the beginning of New Moon, Bella is harassing Edward to become a vampire. And it's also noted that they have changed their timetable so that they have every single class together. He spends most nights at her house. Like Charlie tolerates him, but is not a fan. Even this early on, following the trip to Phoenix, where she comes back like covered in wounds. He's, I think, a little cagey.

Eryn 22:26

Well, because she says the reason she's leaving is because of him. Yeah. So Charlie is already misunderstood of like why of Edwin's behaviour and their relationship.

Laura 22:36

If I were her dad, I'd be pretty freaked out. I would not be happy. The absolute intensity that she feels for him. It's clearly so unhealthy from the outside, and she's so isolated from like you've watched her go from hanging out with people when she first started in school, which, as we now know, only actually happened for like two weeks at best.

Eryn 22:58

Suddenly she's got this new boyfriend she's obsessed with, and these new friends that she's obsessed with, she doesn't see anyone else anymore. Yeah, this is like alarming behavior for sure.

Bridget 23:09

It's in Eclipse, but Renee says that it's almost as if Bella is in orbit around Edward. They're in orbit of each other, like they are just so aware of where the other one is, and everything they do is because of the other one and for the other one. And I think that's an accurate portrayal of their relationship. Having every class together and organizing that way is incredible. It's disgusting.

Laura 23:31

It's insane to read as an adult because when I read that as a teen, I was like, cute, romantic. I wish my love life would be described like that.

Eryn 23:40

Yeah, there isn't an element of it in that like teen crush way that's like, oh my god, so cute. Like sitting in class, scribbling notes to each other, that's so cute. But yeah, really obsessive behaviour. And it's interesting that Edward isn't in this book very much because for the bits he is in, I really can't stand him. He is just an asshole in this. Actually, this is about all the Cullens at this point. I really don't like the way they insist that they know better than Bella all the time. And she says, Don't celebrate my birthday, don't want anything to do with it. And they're like, Oh, here's presents, oh, here's a party. Extravagant, yeah. Yeah, like don't get mad at us. You're the one being unreasonable. Even though you've set this boundary and you've made it clear to us you're being unreasonable because you don't want our kindness, and you have to be nice to us because we don't get to do human things anymore. Like, that's not her problem. And you don't get to cross her boundaries like that. Like, poor Bella doesn't even know enough to be like, actually, no, you're fucked up here. She just goes, Oh fuck, you're right. My bad. I am being insane about this. I should let you give me presents.

Laura 24:51

Oh, if I was a normal person, then I wouldn't want a birthday, but I'm a freak. Yes.

Bridget 24:55

Bella, grow a backbone. It's funny seeing her behavior with the Cutlins compared to when she's in La Push around the werewolves. Like she is feisty and she does fight back and talk back, especially to Sam. She's never like that around the Cullins at this point.

Eryn 25:12

Yes, and I think that is why I really enjoyed this book because you start to see Bella's personality. And Laura's pulling a face. And I will expand that by saying she's not just like rolling over all the time in this. She starts, like Bridget said, to argue and to bicker, and she has things that she's willing to stand up for. And yes, it's always the Cullens, which kind of takes her back a step, but she is at least forming her own opinions and standing by them rather than just bowing to whatever everyone tells her. And I think that's a step in the right direction for her. I don't disagree with you.

Laura 25:49

I think that's absolutely true. I was just thinking about, yeah, the the personality that does come out, whether it's an enjoyable one or not. No, no, it's it's not a great one.

Eryn 25:59

Like, I feel like there's a lot we could discuss about the relationship between her and Jacob. Because in some ways, yes, I do agree she is clear about what she wants, but in other ways she's really not clear, and she uses Jacob, even though she is older and she knows better than him. She lets him act in a way that she knows is gonna confuse him because it's to her benefit and it's gonna make her feel better. Her boundaries are fuzzy at best with Jacob, and I think there's an element here where we have to remember that Jacob is a teenager, and that doesn't absolve some of his behaviour, but it does explain why he behaves some ways. I think she takes advantage of him and she knows she's doing it, and she does it anyway.

Bridget 26:42

Like I think it would be really hard for Bella to let go of that connection. She sees him as her best friend, um, he's the one that like helped her. I think it would be hard for Bella to step back and say, Okay, look, this is too far for me. I'm not interested in you in that way, because if she does that, she loses him. But it is she is using him. Yeah, but he's using her at the same time.

Laura 27:04

Well, see, I don't know that he starts this using her. She definitely does. The way I saw it was that she starts using him, he starts reciprocating in a way, and when she realizes that his feelings are becoming a little bit out of control, I feel that she does set a boundary and he disrespects that boundary and continues pushing past, and then she just kind of gives up because it suits her. It's on both of them, it's on her. I don't want to say because she's like encouraging it or letting it happen to her, but like like those boundaries should have been respected in the first place. It should never have really gotten to that point. But at the same time, I kind of get the feeling that she would have let it re reach that eventuality anyway, because she was really, really, really, really leaning on him for a lot of support.

Eryn 27:51

It's gonna sound funny, but I think part of why he continues to push those boundaries is because she wasn't firm on them until he got to like a point of no return. So he didn't take the boundaries seriously because she wasn't taking them seriously. Yes, like you said, every boundary should be respected and adhered to, but he doesn't know enough yet to know that. I can kind of understand where he comes from and why he thinks he can because he gets away with it one time, he tries another time, and he tries another time until she flips out and he's like, Oh, so that's where the real boundary is compared to all the other ones that she'd set.

Laura 28:28

It is hard, and it's also like so many other things in this book, like so unhealthy for a young reader, because again, I remember reading this book and really truly believing you can love someone if they just weigh you down enough. Like if they're persistent, maybe you can come to love them. Like, I really remember thinking that and just being like, maybe it could work out. Like, I guess I'd never really acted on it, but I do remember having like people that maybe had a crush on me in school and kind of thinking, oh, like maybe it could maybe I could just kind of give it to it kind of thing. Yeah, like maybe it would work out, it could be good, like maybe it's me that's ruining it. I'm not saying Twilight's completely responsible for that, but it definitely kind of confirmed to me, like, yeah, that could happen.

Eryn 29:18

I guess there's a firm line between like uh seeing what happens with someone and having to like convince yourself you like someone. Because I had a friend who said to me once, I can talk myself into liking anyone, and I'm like, bro, you should not be talking yourself into liking people.

Bridget 29:38

I think the difference with this as well, like giving it a go in this universe is committing for the rest of your life, yeah, which is all or nothing, it's so crazy. I think that Jacob also thought the same, and he was 15, she was 18.

Laura 29:54

Gosh, I never really thought about like 15 years, that's quite a large why they'd be hanging out to start with.

Eryn 30:00

I also, and this is more talk about Stephanie Meyer's writing than it is about Jacob as a character. I really don't like the way they constantly describe him as a man in appearance. He's so big, he's so manly. He is still a boy.

Bridget 30:15

At the start of New Moon or maybe Twilight, he is um not that much taller than Bella. By the end of it, he is six foot seven, which is over two metres.

Eryn 30:25

It is so hard to fathom that because she is the tiniest person ever, once again. Uh, and it's just like, how is he so big? It's I can't even think about it.

Bridget 30:36

I think it's that like, I don't know, like sexualization of men of colour as well, like always have to be big and muscular, brutish, animalistic. Yeah, yeah. And then with his character assassination that we'll talk about in a clip.

Laura 30:51

Yeah, I if we're talking just about Jacob Black in this book, I was really overall fairly happy for his friendship to exist. I was really happy when Bella seemed to be like recovering under his like care, I guess.

Eryn 31:06

Yeah.

Laura 31:06

I really liked their friendship. I found it like really quite wholesome and I enjoyed like his friends, Quill and Embry. I liked the dynamic with Charlie and Billy hanging out. I thought it was really healthy and great. And the way that it kind of encouraged Bella to spend a little bit more time, maybe with like Mike and Jessica and find a little bit more normalcy. I think then if we start talking about Jacob in Eclipse, it's a whole other thing. Like I'm trying really hard to not let it go into my thoughts, but uh, it's really hard.

Eryn 31:39

It is tricky. In New Moon, he's a bit more laid back because he hasn't fully come into himself yet. Those scenes where he's struggling with his future/slash identity as a werewolf are really sad. Like when he comes into his into her room and he's like, I really wish I could tell you because we share everything with each other, and then he finds out that she's been lying to him about the vampires and stuff that whole time, like it's sad. And the moment that he has that realization that she has been using him, I I think his character in this book is good, but we'll see how I feel when we talk about eclipse.

Bridget 32:17

I would agree with that, and I would say that this rereading this will be the third time in seven years rereading it. But this time is the most the closest I felt to liking Jacob. I think as I get older, I just and I understand why you swapped, but I I still he still really annoys me. I the movie scene when they go to the movies. I think um if that was my friend, if my friend was acting that way around Mike, I would just get I would get the ick and I'd say, I don't want to be a friend. Like you gotta be this macho macho guy. Like she couldn't put her arms on the armrest because both of them were big losers, yeah. Thinking that she would hold their hands. Why would she hold one of their hands on a like on a in at a hangout?

Eryn 32:59

Yeah.

Bridget 33:00

And he was just so like, I don't know, trying to push Mike into a fight or competing for Bella, and I would just be so turned off.

Eryn 33:07

I could see dudes that we went to high school with doing some of that stuff, that kind of like playful flirting stuff that doesn't really mean anything. Like I I remember dynamics like that, so I don't think that's quite as gross, but I can understand why you're like, no, this is a friend hangout. Why are you bringing it to that place when it's not that?

Bridget 33:27

I think maybe that's why I don't like Jacob. Maybe he just sort of is a bit too normal. Like and I interesting. And I didn't really like I don't know. I don't really like teenagers. I've never really liked teenagers. I don't like teaching. Oh yeah. I don't like teenage behaviour. I don't like like excuses that are made for teenage behaviour, like especially boys, the way they treat girls. Yes. I've never liked it. I've never been like a like a even when I was 14, I I think I would have found Jacob immature. And I feel like Edward, because he's literally a hundred, he's someone that you wouldn't find in a normal high school. So maybe that was like my the why why I was drawn to him.

Eryn 34:07

But I think that's really interesting, and this comes back to a conversation that we had in the Twilight episode, where why aren't these aged up characters? Because this comes down to the appeal of Bella dating an adult man versus Bella dating a teenage boy. The reasons most people don't like Jacob, in New Moon at least, is because he's just a teenager, and the reasons they like Edward is because he's a man. Quote unquote.

Laura 34:33

Yeah, like he's still 17.

Eryn 34:34

Yeah, but like those are the things separating them, and that's insane. Just age them up, just make it a level playing field.

Laura 34:43

The way that Stephanie Meyer writes Jacob and the way that she describes the werewolves is like setting up Jacob to fail anyway. Once he becomes a werewolf, he's described as like out of control. Like he's brutish, he's like angry, he can't control himself around her, he is angry and violent, but it's just a part of his nature. And then the way that he's he's already on the back foot by being younger than Edward. The way that he's kind of like separate from the group already that she so badly wants to be a part of. I don't know if it's giving Stephanie Meyer too much credit to say that she was setting us up to be okay with Jacob failing by having the start of their relationship really be like this toxic thing where they're using one another and he's making advances on her after she's told him no thank you. Because Edward has always been like searching for consent for the most part. Like he's always been very respectful and aware of her boundaries and like trying to tune in really, really hard to what Bella wants. Um and it's not something that he always gets right, but I think the contrast between those two things really leans heavily in Edward's favour.

Bridget 36:01

Like it's foreshadowing the end. I think so. I think a theme that runs through the series is light versus dark, and I think Edward would say he's dark, and Jacob is light because you know endless night. And I guess Twilight, New Moon, you know, we're going into darkness. But in my mind, it's always been I think because New Moon is Jacob's book, he's always represented dark to me. And it because it goes into eclipse, and that's when like the darkness takes over the light, and she's trying to grapple with who do I choose, and then breaking dawn is when Edward finally wins and it's light again. So in my mind it's always been light and dark, which is like positive-negative, I guess. And so I think Stephanie Meyer has set Jacob up to be dark, to be negative, where Edward is positive and light. I don't think she did that on purpose though.

Laura 36:49

It really feels like, yeah, it really does feel like giving her too much credit. I was feeling so bridget when I was reading this book. So many of my notes were like, these are just horrible, selfish people being so nasty to one another and like using each other relentlessly, and I think Bella is particularly to blame. If we can just segue to like a bit of a chat about Bella and like how consistently she awful she is to her friends, how little regard she has for Charlie, she thinks only of herself, and then she's using Jacob, and then she's in like obviously we've talked about that she's like just wallowing in self-pity, but then the pinnacle of it is when she decides to go cliff jumping. And I find this whole scene so jarring because before it she's kind of been having a good time with Jacob, like she's been hanging out with the wolves, and like it just really seems like she's happy because she finally has closure on what's going on with Jacob, and then she's kind of like, Oh shit, like I haven't checked in on Edward's voice in a while. Might have a go at that. And then I think it takes place over maybe like five pages, and I took like half an hour because I was writing down every second line just in like amazement. And again, it's probably giving Stephanie Meyer too much credit, but like the language that she's using here is like an addict, like looking for a fix. So she's remembering Sam and his gang jumping off the cliffs. The image of the falling, spiraling figures was still vivid in my mind. I imagined the utter freedom of the fall. I imagined the way Edward's voice would have sounded in my head, furious, velvet, perfect. The burning in my chest flared agonizingly. There had to be some way to quench it. The pain was growing more and more intolerable by the second. I glared at the cliffs and the crashing waves. Well, why not? Why not quench it right now? She says it was not hard to convince myself that I didn't have time to search for another way. I wanted to jump from the top. This was the image that had lingered in my head. I wanted the long fall that would feel like flying. I knew that this was the stupidest, most reckless thing I had done yet. The thought made me smile. The pain was already easing, as if my body knew that Edward's voice is just seconds away. And that's fucked. It absolutely is. So she's jumped off the cliff and she's decided, oh my god, like, oh shit, I'm not swimming, I'm drowning. You know what? It might be kind of alright to die. Haven't really thought about this for much of the book, and it did seem like I was on a healing journey, but you know what, guys, surprise, it's just how I feel. So then she gets pulled out of the water, saved by Jacob and the gang, and then gets the news broken to her that Harry Clearwater had a heart attack. Then she's kind of like, oh my god, I'm disgusting. I'm so selfish. No one could be as selfish as me. Like, someone, people are actually suffering, and I'm here doing this crazy thing. And then, like mere pages later, she goes on this insane monologue about would Juliet have moved on? Would she have settled for Paris? And she's having this really, really lukewarm take about Romeo and Juliet. And it's at this point in time, at this really low, low point of her personal life, where she's like, Maybe I could take a chance on Jacob. Maybe I could just settle for him. And then it's like so mean. It's so mean. And there's no need to be thinking like this. You are 18 years old, you haven't even left school.

Bridget 40:09

There's not just two people in the world for you.

Laura 40:12

There are not just two people. And at the same time, like Harry Clearwater is still in hospital. It's not clear if he's gonna live. And she's like, I have to figure out how to tell Jacob. Like what the hell? And there is this staggering line, like on the same page, uh, 375, where she says, I knew he would take me in spite of it all. I knew he wouldn't even pause to think about it. What a disgusting way to treat the people that you love.

Eryn 40:39

Yes. Like she knows exactly what she's doing, and like her whole character in this book, she is insanely selfish, but so she's sad. And when she's sad, she wants to be happy. So she finds what makes her happy. When she's happy, she's not happy being happy because she wants what she had before. So then she makes herself sad again, and then she makes herself happy again. Like she just wants what she can't have this whole time, and she can never accept that she has to live with whatever choice she makes. She just wants it all, and she wants it on her terms. The complete selfishness of her being like, Okay, Jacob, let's go jump off the cliff today. And he's like, sorry, Bella, I can't. Let's do it another day. And she's like, nah, fuck that. I want to jump off the cliff right now. It doesn't matter that you're my friend, doesn't matter that we said we were gonna do it together, doesn't matter that I have never done it before, don't know how to do it safely. I want to do it, and I want to do it now, so I'm gonna do it. It's just desperation, it's crazy for what?

Bridget 41:40

For a hallucination. Exactly. I think one of the reasons why I like this book so much is I mean, I don't want to say she deserved it, but she deserved it. She deserved to feel shit. She treats people so terribly, and I sort of liked that she was so sad because she was living this unrealistic life. Her and Edward were both in this bubble of just stupidity, really. Yes. And I think it came crashing down, and it could have been a turning point and it could have been a learning curve for her and Edward, but it wasn't.

Eryn 42:12

But also, like, no one really held her accountable for her behaviour. Her friends were all like, Yay, thanks for coming back, Bella. And it's like, no. You're meant to think that Jessica's a bitch in this book. Jessica is reasonable, she is the only one. Yeah, I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who put me in a dangerous situation like that. And I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who's decided suddenly that they're fine now and they want to hang out again. Why don't we talk about it first, babe? Like, what went on? I've lived three or five months without you now. We don't just get to be friends again with no conversation about that. And like I think even Mike is only friends with her again because he thinks he has a shot now that Edward's gone. Like, it's all just really fucked up shit. I think Charlie, even though he doesn't know what to do with Bella, is trying his best. Like when he stages that intervention and he's like, go move back with your mum. What about therapy? Like, you it's so easy to picture him like while she's at school on her computer, like Googling how to help her, probably snooping through a room just in case. Like he's trying everything he can. He would probably be like calling Renee, but you don't see any of that. I just think she has no idea that all these people are impacted by her choices, and that her choices are really shit ones. It's crazy that when Harry dies, her first thought is how could I be so selfish? Bro, he just died. It's not about you. Yeah, like everyone is sad, it's not about you, no one is thinking about you right now.

Laura 43:53

And rather than thinking, How can I support my friend Jacob and his friends during this time? She's thinking Yeah, and my father. How should I tell Jacob that I'm settling for him?

Eryn 44:04

Yeah. And then Alice shows up and Bella smells her breath. Fucked up. But Alice shows up and Bella is basically, oh thank God. I don't have to tell Jacob I'm settling for him. I don't have to think about Harry dying anymore. Sorry, Dad, but Alice is having a sleepover. I don't care that you're mourning right now. And like Charlie, Charlie has no idea what to do. He's just lost one of his best friends. And you're gonna be like, oh, Alice is staying over.

Laura 44:37

She is truly so horrible. And I think like one of the other absolutely screwed up things she does is like when Edward gets back from Italy and they're having their like, How could you think I didn't love you? How could you love me? I love you, baby girl, kind of chats. And then he asks her to marry him, and she says, Yeah, I'll do it if you turn me into a vampire, and he's like, No way. She just blackmails him, I guess essentially, and is like, fine then, let's go ask your family, they can vote on it, which I think is a really screwed-up thing to do. But then she takes it a step further because when she goes to the Cullens, she says it in this kind of like I'm so selfless. I I guess it's just what has to be done kind of way. But she's like, I want to be one of you, but if you don't want me to be one of you, I'll just go to Italy and just like I'll just die because I don't want you guys to get in trouble with the Volturi, so I'll just go there and let them kill me solo, which is such a screwed-up thing to say.

Bridget 45:41

It's manipulative.

Laura 45:43

That is so manipulative.

Bridget 45:44

Don't leave me, baby, otherwise I'll kill myself.

Eryn 45:46

Oh my god, yes. But I also think she's applying tactics that she was using in La Push with the Cullens now, which she was never doing before. I agree, yeah. This is where you start to see her like having a personality against the Cullens now, because she is manipulating them into doing what she wants. The fact that she's like, I'll just go to any of you who will turn me. I don't even care if it's Edward anymore. Like, baby girl.

Bridget 46:14

She is so desperate. You know what's funny? I'm sitting here listening to this and I'm just thinking, it's all downhill from here for Bella. Yes. She never gets better. No, she gets worse and worse. Yeah, this is her peak. Yeah. That's LG.

Eryn 46:31

It sucks so bad. When Alice shows up, and I mean, I said last episode, I find Alice annoying. She's annoying in this again. I do like though that she can't see the werewolves.

Bridget 46:43

Did you know that she's four foot ten?

Eryn 46:46

So she is another tiny girl.

Bridget 46:49

147 centimeters.

Eryn 46:51

Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.

Bridget 46:52

You know what's funny as well? I was reading that there was outrage because of Alice's casting. She is a couple of inches taller than what she should be. Are you for real?

Eryn 47:03

Yeah. I think What's Her Face is quite good to scrout with. I think she's probably one of the better casting options. I think what's like a big plot hole in here is how they can't reach Edward after Rosalie's told him the fake news about Bella dying. Oh, he puts his phone in a bin.

Bridget 47:22

Yeah. No, I know, but it's like Alice says at some point that if if he hears anyone but Bella, they'll assume it's a lie.

Eryn 47:30

I know, it's just crazy. Like, you are these supernatural, like superpowered vampires. And there is somehow no way to fix this except for sending a human into the heart of like vampire land. Like, you're telling me Jasper can't go there and like fuck around with his emotions until he believes that Bella didn't die?

Bridget 47:56

And I think it would the second he heard them. Well, this is what Alice said. The second that he heard any of them coming, he would do something more drastic. So he would go and kill everyone, so there wouldn't even be time to explain.

Eryn 48:08

And I like I I get that, and like they do explain why, but it just doesn't make any sense.

Bridget 48:15

I think that's one of my favourite parts of the book, actually, is when they go to Volterra. It's incredible.

Eryn 48:20

I really loved that.

Laura 48:22

I I agree it was a good setting, but at the same time as well, like we realise, or we find out later, that the Volturi will dish out their justice anywhere in the world if you're breaking the vampire rules. So I really don't understand. I guess he wanted it to be more immediate. But he couldn't he have like set himself on fire or couldn't he have just gone on a killing spree? I guess like so compassionate, he didn't want to hurt other people.

Bridget 48:46

He didn't want to disappoint Carlisle at the end.

Laura 48:49

It's just I know we did it for the drama, but like once again, like you know, it's been explained. Yeah. But has it really been explained because it doesn't make much sense.

Eryn 48:59

Yeah, it's not really a good enough explanation.

Bridget 49:02

I think it's funny as well because um religion pops itself into this book again. I hate it. So they're talking about souls and afterlife and whatever, and I think it's interesting that when he's just about to step into the sunlight and then Bella slams into him and he thinks he's already dead, and he says, Oh wow, they are quick. And Carlyle was right because he's there with Bella in the afterlife. And I thought that was sweet. Like, if you just forget about just the stupidity of the whole thing. I think it was it I don't know. I thought that was nice that he got what he that he thought he was like ahead of. He thought he was never gonna get it, and I think I can just imagine how happy he would be that Carlisle was right and I get to spend all of my time eternity with Bella.

Eryn 49:46

I think that's a really like reassuring and really lovely way to end it, if that was how it ended. Like if you ended their story with Edward's last thought being Carlisle was right, you're like, wow, that that's powerful because Edward thought he had no soul and now he's dead and he's learnt the truth. But in the way that it like comes out, you're like it just seems kind of like I don't know, preachy, maybe.

Bridget 50:10

Oh, definitely.

Eryn 50:11

When it otherwise could be really powerful.

Bridget 50:14

And then I think if it was maybe without the conversations that come to be in Eclipse and Breaking Dawn, I think it would it would have been really powerful and it turns from afterlife into heaven, basically. Like it's not like reincarnation or rebirth or like some generic religion. It becomes pretty obvious that it's just like you're run-of-the-mill Christianity.

Eryn 50:35

But I want to talk more about the Volturi because they are the big baddies. They're sick, like they're so cool. I agree. Something I was thinking about when I was reading this book was this book is like 80% lead up, but it's not 10% action. It's like two seconds of action and then more build-up. It's sad because it's you're like, oh yeah, the big bads, the big bads, and then you meet them and you're like, oh shit, what's gonna happen? And then some crazy shit does happen. Like that scene where they bring all the humans in and they are like bringing them into their death, and that lady's praying and she's trying to figure out what's going on, but she doesn't speak English, and like Bella's locked eyes with her, like that's intense. That's a great scene. I love that bit, but that's like the peak of the tension there. Like, that's it. You hear them die, and then Bella and Edward get to go, and you're like, oh, okay, that was really anticlimactic. You're right.

Laura 51:32

At the end of the book, as well, we learn, okay, well, a date's been set, Bella will become a vampire at some point, they will probably get married at some point. These things that should be attention just fizzle away.

Eryn 51:45

Even when Jane has just tortured Edward, and you're like, Oh yeah, boys, here we go, here we go. But magically she can't torture Bella, and it's like there are no fucking stakes here anymore. Like, sure, one of you could die, but you've both almost died like three times already, and I'm sick of reading about it. I don't guess she's normal now. Yeah, like, and in a very similar way to Akatar, you just stop caring.

Laura 52:10

Yeah.

Eryn 52:11

Because no one is actually dying. No, there are no consequences for these actions. It gets old.

Laura 52:18

I do have um one more piece of information to add into the does Stephanie Meyer know how things work stockpile. Um and that is when they are building the bikes, and Jacob says, Oh, it's gonna be really expensive, like probably a hundred dollars.

Eryn 52:39

But I wasn't sure if that was Stephanie or if that was Jacob being like a 15-year-old who also doesn't know how anything works. I'm willing to bet it's Stephanie. Well, see, even as I was saying that, I'm like, well, Jacob's meant to be like building his other car. He knows how expensive things are. Well, he should know. 100 bucks is not that expensive. And also, how are they getting all those parts for $100?

Laura 53:03

I think this is really similar to Aquatar, as in that I was left wondering, has Stephanie Meyer ever met a man? And I don't profess, like, I don't think I could write a convincing teenage boy. But um, did you notice when Jacob just randomly decided he was gonna start calling Bella honey?

Eryn 53:24

Oh, thank God! I actually hated these terms of endearment. I hated that Jacob called Bella the same way Charlie called Bella, and they both called her Bell's, and they both said Bell's honey. I'm like, has she forgotten she's writing the second love interest and not her dad? Oh yeah. And never picked up on that.

Bridget 53:44

Yes, like kissing on the head.

Eryn 53:46

Yes, it was really weird, and like I'm so glad you brought it up because I thought it was just me reading too much into it, but I decided it. I hated the way that he spoke exactly the same way that Charlie did. Your love partner and your parent should not be using the same terms of endearment. That's weird. It's really fucking weird.

Bridget 54:06

Honey's like a middle-aged shop assistant kind of vibe.

Eryn 54:10

It's what Cheryl at the cafe calls you because she knows your favourite muffin.

Laura 54:14

Like I think the dialogue in this book was really bad. I I think you said something about you liked how they were having like more interactions with people, and I liked some of the banter, but I just think like once again, Stephanie Meyer isn't the best writer, and so much of the dialogue was like, Hey Jake, I said with a smile, hey Bella, he said, smiling back, what are you doing today? I asked. Not much, what are you doing today? Yeah, and it was just so like unsophisticated.

Bridget 54:41

My favourite word that was used a few times across the series was N-A-W. No. No. I made a note about that, did you? Why is she suddenly like Southern? No, Jake's just helping me out. I just don't I don't get it.

Eryn 54:56

Even when I first read these books, I distinctly remember reading that word and being like, what the fuck? I think in the Twilight episode I mentioned that a lot of the conversations go nowhere. New Moon is so much worse at that. There are like Laura just said, there are just conversations that's just back and forth, no purpose, no direction. Like, why even give us the dialogue if there's nothing in it that we need? Just say, I spoke with Billy for five minutes while I was waiting for Jacob. Also, like the beef between Billy and Bella is extreme. It's incredible. He's a child. He's crazy.

Bridget 55:32

Billy is rude to Bella. He is encouraging of Jacob's boundary crossing. Like, he he thinks it's all Bella's fault. He can't see that there's two people at play here. Yeah. And two people at fault. Like, he is rude.

Eryn 55:44

And like Billy's a dick in Twilight. We didn't even talk about it, but Billy's a dick in Twilight. It's horrible. When he sends Jacob to prop just to be like Bella, don't date the vampire. And Jacob's like, sorry, Bella, you promised me like 15 bucks.

Laura 56:01

Yeah, that was sweet. I liked that. I liked Jacob's part of that. Yeah, I didn't like that Billy made him do that, to be clear.

Bridget 56:08

I don't like Billy. And then when when Bella is being caring and like worrying about Jacob, he is not helpful.

Eryn 56:15

He makes it worse. It's like he'll call you when he's ready. He's mean. And then he disconnects the phone. Yeah.

Bridget 56:22

Yeah.

Laura 56:23

Billy, Billy's a crazy character. There is this really painful exchange, like just as an example of the bad dialogue. I thought this was like a good example of it sucking. Come on in, Bella, Billy said. He was at the kitchen table eating cold cereal.

Eryn 56:40

Oh.

Laura 56:40

I don't really know what kind of hot cereal you might have. Bleeping. Piping hot cereal. Jake sleeping? Uh no. He set his spoon down and his eyebrows pulled together. What happened? I demanded. I could tell from his expression that something had happened. Ambry, Jared, and Paul crossed a fresh trail early this morning. Sam and Jake took off to help. Sam was hopeful. She's hedged herself in beside the mountains. He thinks they have a good chance to finish this. Oh no, Billy, I whispered. Oh no. He chuckled deep and low. Do you really like the push so well that you want to extend your sentence there? Don't make jokes, Billy. This is too scary for that. You're right, he agreed, still complacent. His ancient eyes were impossible to read. This one's tricky. He's probably fifty. No, but it's ancient wisdom. It's ancient wisdom.

Bridget 57:36

That Stephanie's leveraged.

Laura 57:39

For a nice time.

Eryn 57:40

I really liked the story between Sam, Leah, and Emily. Like for all of them, there's no say in the matter, there's no choice. It just is what it is. You don't even get to choose. That's crazy. I think this is an eclipse, but they talk a bit more about how the whole imprinting mate thing happens. And for some people, they can choose how to be in their mate's life, but for Sam he couldn't. It was just like insta love with Emily, and he was just all in with Emily, fuck Leah off, who cares about Leah. Seems questionable to me after, and I guess maybe she hadn't Stephanie hadn't written the whole imprinting plot yet, so she didn't know how she wanted it to work. But when you read that bit and you think back on Sam, Emily, and Leah, you're like, Sam's a bit of a dog for that. Like, pardon the pun. Pardon the pun. But yeah, that's a dog move. Like, if you can choose, probably should have um handled that a bit with a bit more grace than just dropping your your girlfriend for your side bay.

Laura 58:43

And her cousin. I think it's really interesting commentary, like when you put it against the vampires. Like Edward thirsts for Bella's blood and he wants to drink it like he wants to kill her, but he has the control and the calm and the poise to overcome that. Uh, but it's almost like the werewolves are written as having no option, and then like imprinting out of their control, and then like Sam loses control, disfigures his partner, and then that's kind of taken with the attitude of like, oh well, like these things happen. Like the I mean, obviously he's sad about it, but it's like, well, that's just part and parcel of who we are, like, we're savages, uh, and I just really think that's an interesting line in the stand that she's drawn. Because why can the vampires overcome their their lot in life, but the werewolves cannot?

Bridget 59:40

Even just imprinting in general, like that is what animals do. Just a lot of the choices that Stephanie Meyer has made, like the allegations are uh are allegating. And for good reason, like she makes choices. She certainly makes choices.

Laura 59:59

I think we'll have a lot to say about this in the clips when we start to learn a bit more about the real life legends that like inform this story, which is really quite interesting.

Eryn 1:00:10

The more you learn about it. I have a note here that says pronunciation, and I couldn't remember why I wrote this note, but it came to me while we've been talking about this. Is that when we were reading these in this book in school, I kept calling it new moon, and you two both bullied me and told me it wasn't new moon, it was new moon because we were Australian and only Americans said new. As the lie, babe? Yeah.

Bridget 1:00:38

What's what's the allegation? You bullied me. I do it again.

Laura 1:00:45

The rumors are true.

Bridget 1:00:46

New moon. Sounds like you're trying not to smell something through your nose.

Eryn 1:00:50

But I think that's why this whole episode I've struggled with saying new moon because I keep going to say new moon because of you bullying me.

Laura 1:01:00

I don't remember that, but I do remember that actually. I don't remember that specifically, but I remember like you having that way of speaking. And I was like, it's weird because nothing else you say is Americanized. Sorry, I grew up in a multicultural school.

Bridget 1:01:16

We're Australian. That's literally what you said. Yeah, I mean And I'd say it again, me too.

Laura 1:01:23

I guess one more conspiracy theory that I was feeling at the time, um, apart from the fact that Erin was possessed by an American alien, um, was that this album, and I hope someone listening, besides Bridget, um when you edit this, hi. Um, I hope someone listening remembers this album. It was one sperm in the sea or something. One cell in the sea. Jesus Christ. The album was One Cell in the Sea by A Fine Frenzy. And this album was my everything. I really, really liked it, but I think I latched onto it incredibly strongly because I absolutely convinced myself that this entire album was written about New Moon. And I think we need to share some lyrics because I'm convinced to this day. I would have been listening to this a little bit. Doesn't hit quite the same, I have to say. I disagree.

Bridget 1:02:18

I remember is in grade nine, like one of my most vivid memories of high school is us in the practice room in the music block, us just playing near to you on a loop for about six months and like just like sadly singing along.

Laura 1:02:35

That sounds so right. One in particular that I thought was about the choice between Edward and Jacob was this song called Near To You. And the lyrics are he and I had something beautiful but so dysfunctional it couldn't last. I loved him so, but I let him go because I knew he'd never love me back. And then the chorus is Near to You, I'm Healing, but it's taking so long. Because though he's gone and you are wonderful, it's hard to move on. Yeah, I'm better near to you. And I was like, holy shit, this is the most convincing argument for Team Jacob I could ever have heard. And then there was another one called Almost Lover, which I think was one of the more popular songs from the album. Um, and there was a line that said, You sang me Spanish lullabies, the sweetest sadness in your eyes, clever trick. And I was like, Oh my god, Spanish blue! And so I really thought that was Edward. I never wanted to see you unhappy. I thought you'd want the same for me. And then the chorus is goodbye, my almost lover, goodbye, my hopeless dream. I'm trying not to think about you, can't you just let me be? So long, my luckless romance, my back has turned on you. Should have known you'd bring me heartache. Almost lovers always do. Aw. Those are nice lyrics. It is. They are nice lyrics. And then, oh my god, the like bridge was so good. I always used to slam this out at my piano. So shrill, poor mum and dad. I cannot go to the ocean, I cannot drive the streets at night, I cannot wake up in the morning without you on my mind. So you're gone and I'm haunted, and I bet you were just fine. Did I make it that easy to walk in and out of my life? Oof. Oh yeah. Actually, tears in my tears in my voice right now. So, anyway, like a bit of an extended segue. Um, it's an old album. I think it's really it's pretty good. Of the time. Yeah. Yeah. And I highly, highly, highly recommend doing some sort of reread of Twilight and New Moon with this album on in the background, and you will have the full experience.

Eryn 1:04:42

It's so funny that you guys had like albums and stuff that you associate with these books. I feel like at the time I was really into it, but I mustn't have been into it that much. I have none of this stuff to like reflect on. I've got none of this. This is amazing. Because I know Bridget, you've got songs that you think were new moons.

Bridget 1:05:02

Yeah, definitely. There's a Taylor Swift song, The Haunted. Like it goes, you and I walk a fragile line. I've known it all this time. I never thought I'd live to see it break. And I just really I just I you can't convince me otherwise that it wasn't written for the soundtrack. And I just feel like something, you know, contractually just fell through. It just fits it so well. Um, come on, come on, don't leave me like this. I thought I had you figured out, something's gone terribly wrong, you're all I wanted. Can't breathe whenever you're gone, can't turn back now. I'm haunted. He will try to take away my pain, and he just might make me smile, but the whole time I'm wishing he was you instead. Oh, that's New Moon. Yeah, like stood there and watched you walk away from everything we had, but I still mean every word I said to you. It's it's New Moon. You can't convince me otherwise. I want a remake with this song in their credits. Just while we're on the topic of music as well, Stephanie Meyer's soundtrack that was on her book. Vlog is another interesting one. So this one has 23 songs. A lot of them I don't know and I don't care about. But the ones that send out to me are Unwell Matchwatch 20. That's why I played it before we started. That's such an like oof, that's an on the nose choice.

Eryn 1:06:16

In the year of Barbie, no less.

Bridget 1:06:20

Fix you, Coldplay.

Eryn 1:06:22

Another on the nose choice. Like a fantastic song. They're both great songs, but ouch.

Bridget 1:06:29

Over my head cable car. That's of the time, isn't it? But then your mama, fat boy slim. I don't know at what point that was coming in. I don't know what, but it's very interesting. Oh, and another Lincoln Park song. Uh papercut. There's an all-American rejects. Um, Time Stand Still, three Muse songs, and a Jimmy World Pain. Oh, Evanescence going under. Oh. Papa.

Laura 1:07:02

Stephanie.

Bridget 1:07:03

Yeah. She was really going through it. She's actually written from whose perspective you're meant to listen them to. Let's see.

Eryn 1:07:11

Jacob, Fix You. That is not where I thought that was going.

Bridget 1:07:16

He doesn't have too many. He's got two, Fix You and Never Let You Down by Verve Pipe. Your mama doesn't have a name next to it, so unsure. But Edward doesn't have that many either. He's got Sing for Absolution, Muse, uh, Sound of Pulling Heaven Down, Blue October. I don't know either of those songs. But the rest of them are all are all Bella.

Laura 1:07:36

So Papercut is Bella.

Bridget 1:07:39

Yep. Like we said, she's going through it. Foo Fighters? D-O-A. Is that Dead on Arrival? Yes. Uh, so that one and your mama are not accredited to any character. So I'm guessing maybe it was the cliff jumping recovery.

Eryn 1:07:56

The vibes of this are it's a big spectrum. It's weird.

Bridget 1:08:01

Yeah.

Eryn 1:08:01

Like to put Unwell by Matchbox 20 and Papercut by Lincoln Park on the same playlist is just it's certainly a choice. It's a choice. She is interesting.

Bridget 1:08:13

I know we've talked a lot about the writing and the themes of the writing, but I think this is the first book, and I it happens again in Eclipse, but the first book where Stephanie is trying her little heart out to make comparisons to classic literature. Oh. So this book, she uh picked up Romeo and Juliet, and she thought, how can I make this part of my story? How can I make money off this story?

Eryn 1:08:39

It is so obvious, though. Like it's not even subtle. It it hurts me. Oh, I hate it so much. It's like it's obvious from the very beginning when they watch it and Edwin's like, uh, Romeo's a yuppie or whatever it is he fucking says.

Bridget 1:08:55

Also, when he's whispering his lines into her ear, shut up. Yeah, I would be like, let me watch my Zach Efron knockoff. Yeah. Like, just be quiet. But I also think it's funny because she doesn't mention it until right at the end of the book when she's jumping off the cliff and she's thinking, oh, maybe I can maybe I can set off for Paris. And then all of a sudden it's like, wait, shit, I was meant to draw these comparisons to Romeo and Juliet. Let me just shove them all in. Edward starts quoting it. It's oh, it's just so embarrassing.

Eryn 1:09:27

And then doesn't she talk a bit as well about what if Romeo loved Rosalind in the beginning? Like, oh, shut up.

Laura 1:09:35

Romeo wants Juliet to be happy, and maybe Paris could make her happy. We never got to know about Paris, but maybe he was a really nice guy that happened to be a werewolf.

Eryn 1:09:45

It's like if you watched the Claire Danes one, everyone was also rooting for Paris because Paul Rad's hot. Like, it's like you don't even know.

Bridget 1:09:53

It's so funny though, because I'm not sure how old um Stephanie Meyer is or was when she wrote this book. I know that she got married in '94. That just sticks in my head. So she's old, like a child bride. I don't know how old she is, but I just think that making comparisons to Romeo and Juliet is something you do when you're 16.

Laura 1:10:16

It's cheap. One of my one of my most embarrassing moments is uh, do you guys remember Yahoo Answers? Yeah. I used to go on Yahoo Answers a lot, like asking my little insecure questions. Like, didn't know how to use the internet. I'd be like, should I get red hair? I have white skin and blue eyes. Would it suit me? Like, um, how can I be like more like Emma Watson? How do I get people to like me? And it was a brutal, brutal place, but one I remember I was posting in the like sort of creative writing forum or threads or whatever. I can't quite remember how it worked, but I remember being like, would this make a good story? Answered my question. Um, so there's two people, um, a boy and a girl, and they're from two families that don't get along. In fact, they're in like kingdoms that are like at war with one another, and it's forbidden for them to be together. But then they meet and they don't know who they are, but then they fall in love and their families keep them away, and then they have to make a huge sacrifice. What do you guys reckon? And would that be good? And I was absolutely ripped to shreds by people being like, What's the plot of Romeo and Juliet, you moron? And I hadn't read it, I didn't know. I was like, I probably had the tools to know this by that point in time. I think it was maybe like grade eight or something, but I remember being like, of course, it was a joke, and you all fell for it. You clearly passed English, just like me. I'm also 17.

Bridget 1:11:47

I think it's just a phase where, like, you know, writers and whatever they go through comparisons to Romeo and Juliet, and everyone thinks at one point, I mean, I don't think I ever did, but at one point in your life, people think it's just so romantic. Uh, new moon out of it. We've got love story, TeleSwift, I guess, out of it.

Eryn 1:12:04

Like I like Romeo and Juliet. I think it's a good plot to like, easy plot to get good content out of, and that's why everyone does it. I think why it doesn't work for me here is that it's so blatant, it's not subtle in the slightest. She's literally naming the source material and all the characters. It's not like in other books where you're like, oh, that's kind of like that, or like, oh, it's kind of like think about how they did it in If We Were Villains. Like, you knew that they were referencing plays, but what's his face wasn't out there being like, oh my god, it's just like in McBear. Like, imagine. Like, the reader knows they've drawn the conclusions, you don't need to be like author's note. By the way, if you didn't get it, this is about Romeo and Juliet.

Bridget 1:12:52

And it's funny because like I've I only just made that after I was slamming Stephanie Meyer for the Romeo and Juliet. I only just made that Taylor Swift thing connection in my mind. But she was like 15 when she wrote Love Story. Like, I just I need to know how old she is. Hang on, let me see when she's um 49 years old. Old enough to know better, though, really.

Laura 1:13:12

Like old enough to not want to sexualise high schoolers. Oh yeah.

Eryn 1:13:17

Personally, I really love the playlist content that you're bringing to these episodes, Bridget. I really love it. Um and I think that it's a nice way to wrap up the episode on top of our usual things. So now that we've done that, let's talk about favourite characters in New Moon. Who's our favorite?

Laura 1:13:37

Charlie.

Bridget 1:13:38

Edward.

Eryn 1:13:41

You were such a basic bitch.

Bridget 1:13:43

That's fun. I love how dramatic he is.

Eryn 1:13:46

It's quite funny to me. Yeah, look, there's not many winners in it, to be honest. Maybe, maybe Charlie. I think Charlie is trying his best in a very tough situation, and he's getting no help from anyone. And he's sort of a voice of reason. He's like a lone voice of reason in this book. When he's like, like, if that makes you happy, chase what makes you happy. Like, oh, now you're crying on the couch again. Oh, are you sure you should chase after him when you've just been crying on the couch over him? Like seeing your friends. He's yeah, he's doing his best. In good therapy, yeah. On top of all this, like, when you think about Charlie holistically over the whole journey, but even just in this book, he is suffering non-stop. Yeah. His daughter's a hot mess, his best mate dies, and he's chasing these, or like risking his life every day, chasing these fucking werewolves, going out with rival uh rifles, doesn't know if he's gonna come home every day. Like he's probably before he goes to work every day, like leaving his will on his pillow or some shit, just in case. So like this is crazy shit, and Bella's out here jumping off fucking cliffs.

Bridget 1:14:52

Also, Bella's convinced that he's still in love with Renee. So, like he either is and like pining after Renee up after 17 years, or he's just like aware that I think because I think Bella thinks that no one else is aware of what's going on around her, but people are, yeah, and so she'd be probably making like comments about Renee and like, oh, I shouldn't mention her around you. Like, he's probably like, Why? Damn it.

Eryn 1:15:17

It's been 17 years, Bella. I think I'm over it. She's she's yeah, not crying on my couch anymore. No, I'm like, yeah. But also, like, remember when she was like uh Sam's bad news, Jacob was really afraid of him, and he's like, Oh no, Billy thinks he's alright, and she's like, No, I mean it, Dad. And he's like, Alright, then I'll look into it. And then she's like, Nah, just kidding. Just kidding. Sam's fine now. Yeah, and he's like, Oh, my detective senses are confused now. Poor Charlie. He is pretty good. I love Charlie. After all of that, after all those discussions, lit or shit, Laura.

Laura 1:15:56

Oh, I really struggled with this one, you guys. I think I probably will say lit. I wanted to come home and read this book. So I'm gonna go with lit. Bridget. Lit.

Eryn 1:16:06

I agree. This one's lit. This is a stronger lit than Twilight. It's a weaker one for me. Ooh, I'm so excited to see how this continues.

Bridget 1:16:16

Before this book, our lives were like a moonless night. We are so excited you are all coming on this journey with us. Make sure you subscribe to the show, and if you want to be on the same page as us, follow us at talkclip.gethit on Instagram and TikTok.