eclipse is way more problematic than we remembered - eclipse by stephenie meyer

baby vampires and werewolves and confederates, oh my! 

as the moon overshadows the sun, so too does the romantic drama of some boring teenagers overshadow the very real (but very easily squashed) threat of an army of newborn vampires - but hey, that’s twilight, baby!

this episode will have you questioning your status as a particular european nation as we cover eclipse by stephenie meyer for the third instalment of the twilight megamix extravaganza. go on and give the play button more action than bella gets from edward ❤️

special things mentioned in the episode:

• how well do you know eclipse? quiz
• timeline from twilight lexicon
• adjusting the focus on twilight's misconceptions by dr deana dartt-newton
• cultural theft in twilight
• quileute move to higher ground fund
• eclipse playlist from stephenie meyer

synopsis music: for when it rains by juan sanchez

choose our next podcast read by going here and voting in the first week of each month!

make sure you subscribe to hear our groundbreaking thoughts as soon as they are unleashed. if you want to be on the same page as us, follow us at talklit.gethit on Instagram and TikTok.

theme music born from the creative genius of Big Boi B.

join talk lit, get hit podcast for deep dives into the hottest BookTok recommendations, trending contemporary fiction, and literary favourites! each episode features book discussions, spoiler-filled chats, and thoughtful literary analysis of novels everyone is talking about - from viral romance and fantasy to modern classics. whether you’re looking for BookTok book reviews, author interviews, or a virtual book club experience, out podcast is your go-to space for readers who love stories and want to explore them in depth.

talk lit, get hit are reading and recording on Giabal, Jagera, Jarowair & Turrbal lands. we acknowledge the cultural diversity of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and pay respect to Elders past, present and future. always was, always will be.  

Transcript

Laura 0:00

Hello and welcome to Talk with Get Hit, a podcast where we read questionable books recommended to us by social media and talk shit about them.

Eryn 0:07

We're Bridget, Erin, and Laura, three friends who haven't mentally progressed since high school, where we bonded over a love of music and books, but mainly Twilight.

Bridget 0:15

Brace yourself for a heady cocktail of somewhat highbrow and incredibly lowbrow ramblings about all the books the internet loves and our journey to figure out why.

Laura 0:23

Welcome back to the show and welcome to the third episode of our Twilight Saga Mega Mix Extravaganza. This episode we are, of course, discussing Eclipse by Stephanie Meyer and trying to figure out if we, like Bella, can be Switzerland when it comes to territorial disputes between mythical creatures, whether we are Team Edward or Team Jacob, and whether, after all this time, the events of this book are simply too much to handle. Once again, we're foregoing our monthly catch-up. We did spend a little bit of time catching up on our Twilight episode, and if you haven't already, it's a pretty good listen, so I would highly recommend checking out our Twilight episode and our new moon episodes because honestly, it just makes sense. Um we're we're three books in and you gotta you gotta have a bit of an idea of what's going on. What are you doing? Uh but we thought we would do something a little bit different, and our sacred provider, Bridget, has provided us with some Twilight trivia. That we're excited. I don't know if I'm doing a good job of selling this, but trust us guys, it's gonna be really funny, it's gonna be good.

Bridget 1:21

I've picked a random quiz for us to do just to see if we actually know what we're talking about.

Eryn 1:26

No, I'm confident no.

Laura 1:29

Yeah, I am like feeling a little c underconfident on your behalf, Erin, because I will say that we watched a Eclipse recap video just now full of memes. And Erin said, Who's Riley?

Bridget 1:42

Even though she's literally just finished the book.

Laura 1:46

Like yesterday.

Eryn 1:47

Slammed. I seriously didn't know that that was his name, but I know who the character's meant to be now. Now, the main thing.

Laura 1:55

And you will probably go with that trivia question right. So Yeah. Exactly. That was studying. We've all got to learn somehow. You don't know what you don't know.

Bridget 2:04

Am I right, ladies? So this quiz is called How Well Do You Know a Clip? So we're starting with some easy ones. Okay. Number one. Jacob tells Bella about Leah Clearwater and somebody having a relationship in high school. Who did Leah Clearwater have as her high school lover? Sam. Sam. Poor Leah. Number two. You're trying to protect your virtue. Who says this in chapter 20? Bella says it, doesn't she? She says it to Edward. Yeah. Yeah. Third one. What was the name of Rosalie's fiance in her mortal life? Um, wouldn't have a clue. Mr. Man.

Eryn 2:39

I think he's a prince of some description or like an artist.

Bridget 2:43

Local rich guy. Royce King the Second. Oh my god. See, I was close. Yeah. You were close. A king. Okay, number four. To Bella, it seems like Edward's eyes get something every time she says Jacob's name. Darker. Yeah, I think so. Number five. At the graduation party, Alice changes into what clothes? Oh, I know.

Laura 3:05

Oh, isn't it like a shimmery discourse?

Bridget 3:08

No, it's a top. Oh, it's a few. And I think it's like leather pants. Oh, leather pants. Are you on real? Red leather pants. Yep. And like a sequined. I think it's like a in my head, it's like a halten egg. Oh my god, get out of here. What a slay.

Eryn 3:19

Like full-on Britney Spears. Like one of those like weirdly like metal ones. And when they move, it looks like water. Chainmail, kind of. Chainmail, that's what I'm after, yeah.

Bridget 3:27

Sequined tank top and red leather pants. That's insane. I love it.

Eryn 3:31

It's a high school graduation party, Alice. Like pull it with the leather pants.

Bridget 3:38

Number six. The night Bella comes home from Florida, Charlie tells Bella that Jacob's been blowing up the phone. And when Bella calls him back, he asks if she's going to be at school tomorrow. When Bella and Edward come to school, they see Jacob. And to others, Jacob looks like a bad boy. Yeah, like scary.

Eryn 3:56

Like he's in a gang or some shit.

Laura 3:57

Yeah, everyone gets real nervy. Is this when they're taking bets on like who who's gonna like win Bella's love? Yeah, I think and the principal calls the police. Or threats threatens to yes, I forgot about that.

Bridget 4:10

The other kids all think he looks dangerous. Question seven. In the book, Edward and Bella walk into the house and see most of the Cullen sitting around. They are considering there is a serial killer in Seattle. Carlisle pipes up, and on what channel does he say several debates were on? Fox. I reckon CNN, because they watch it in Breaking Dawn as well. Okay. CNN has specialists debating the theory.

Eryn 4:32

Wish I could get paid to debate whether or not there's a serial killer in Seattle. I'm going with yeah. Like lots of people dying. What's the counter-argument?

Laura 4:41

Like no.

Eryn 4:42

No, they're not dying.

Laura 4:44

It's people are gonna die, but it's like inevitable.

Bridget 4:49

Number eight. What does Edward think of Wuthering Heights?

Eryn 4:52

He hates it.

Bridget 4:53

He thinks they're both terrible people, doesn't he?

Eryn 4:56

But then it depends how far the answer's going, because he does come around by the end of Eclipse and he goes, you know, I understand Heathcliff now. Shut up, Edward.

Bridget 5:05

He doesn't like it because he thinks at least one of them needs redeeming qualities.

Laura 5:10

You and me both, sis. Check out a mirror Edward.

Bridget 5:14

Number nine. Who does Edward think is better for Bella than himself?

Eryn 5:18

Jacob. Mike Newton.

Bridget 5:20

I think it's Mike.

Eryn 5:21

It's Mike.

Bridget 5:22

Because doesn't she get really offended?

Eryn 5:24

I think so, yeah. I think that sounds good. Jacob Lack. Oh. Oh. But I think there is also a He's definitely had a throwaway comment because he says it several times. Like in Twilight, he even says it.

Bridget 5:35

Number 10. Last one. When Rosalie shares her story with Bella, she says she was jealous of one of her friends when they got married. What was her friend's name?

Eryn 5:42

That's a hard one. Such a pointless one.

Bridget 5:45

She had a little boy with blue eyes.

Eryn 5:47

I think it's Mary. Eileen?

Bridget 5:49

Is it Vera?

Eryn 5:50

Oh, that's a good idea. That sounds most accurate. I I would remember if it was.

Bridget 5:55

Okay, let's see. Vera. Rosalie gets jealous when she sees Vera's husband come home.

Eryn 5:59

Why is that possible?

Bridget 6:00

And kiss both her and their beautiful son Henry.

Laura 6:03

Why would you remember?

Eryn 6:04

Vera is my middle name. I feel like I would remember if it was in there. That's well, we got nine out of ten. That is good.

Laura 6:11

Alrighty, well, let's just get into the episode. Like we said, if you've listened to our previous episodes on Twilight and New Moon, then you are well aware how we were thinking and feeling at this point in time in our lives when we first read these books and the absolute chokehold that these books had on our lives, except perhaps for Erin, as we have discovered.

Eryn 6:29

I feel like it did, but I just don't remember.

Laura 6:33

But if you haven't listened to those episodes, this is the second plug to get out of here and go and do that. And while you're at it, subscribe to the show, please, and thank you. However, we are now up to the third book in this saga, and some of us have had our confidence rocked by false memories of the series. Some of us have remembered little to none about the events of the book, and I'm feeling called out by both of those. So it's just me both times. No, I was I've been really shocked by some of the things that I completely forgot happened. As they appear on the page, I'm like, oh shit. But I had no memory of it until I read it. And then, yes, of course, there are some of us that seem to know every word. Let's set the scene. We're 29 in the prime of our lives, and we're about to reread Eclipse. How are we all feeling? Bridget, how about you?

Bridget 7:18

It's not my favourite, it's not my least favourite. I like the concept of the newborn army. I think it's clever, but I do know that it is a big book and not much happens.

Eryn 7:32

Um, I was excited going into Eclipse. I had no recollection of what actually happens in Eclipse. And not even reading New Moon like reminded me what happens in Eclipse. I vaguely remembered a tent scene, but could not remember how we got there or why we got to a tent. So I was excited to hopefully finally see some fucking action because I was sick of nothing happening. And yet it's a bit like Bella. Different kinds of action, I guess. What about you, Laura? Where were you at?

Laura 8:02

I think I remember this one being probably my least favourite. I think coming into this following New Moon, I was not super excited because I just thought it was more of what I didn't like about New Moon, which was like Bella and Edward and Jacob going back and forth, being awful to each other, and having like barely developed emotions that they were rashly acting upon. So I was kind of like exhausted in anticipation. That said, like there's just something about these books that kept me so excited, and I was still thinking, gosh, I can't wait to go home and read that though.

Eryn 8:38

Before we get into discussing the book, this is your usual reminder to get at now if you've not read the books and you don't want any spoilers. Content warning for all the things we're discussing themes of abuse, racism, mental illness, suicide, and violence. But always make sure to do your own checks before proceeding.

Bridget 8:54

As Seattle is ravaged by a string of mysterious killings and a malicious vampire continues her quest for revenge, Bella once again finds herself surrounded by danger.

Eryn 9:04

In the midst of it all, she is forced to choose between her love for Edward and her friendship with Jacob, knowing that her decision has the potential to ignite the ageless struggle between vampire and werewolf.

Laura 9:15

With her graduation quickly approaching, Bella has one more decision to make: life or death. But which is which? Book 3, Down the Hatch, and as always, we have struggled to succinctly address our initial feelings, but if you could briefly summarize your post-reading experience without going into too much detail, how would you say you're feeling?

Eryn 9:38

I wish that you said cut the shit again.

Laura 9:42

It would have been more succinct.

Eryn 9:44

Cut the shit down the hatch. Um I really enjoyed reading Eclipse. I finished Eclipse really excited to talk about Eclipse. It's probably the one I've been most excited to talk about.

Laura 9:56

I was staggered by this book. I found a lot to talk about. I don't think I necessarily enjoyed reading it, but I'm excited to talk about it.

Bridget 10:03

I think that in this book the characters annoyed me the most out of all the books. I think they there are some really complex themes in the book, and if you take away the day-to-day dialogue and just absolute poor shit that that is. Yeah, I think the actual themes underlying are really interesting and the concepts are really interesting.

Laura 10:24

As we've done with the previous episodes, we really need to address the bananas timeline. This shit is bananas. It really is bananas. Yeah, like PSE. Ooh. Pop off. The timeline of events, though, it it is bananas, and I think this is the best one yet. So once again, you're gonna have to bear with me, but as always, it's gonna be worth it. So something before I start discussing this timeline is a little note from the end of New Moon. So um the end of New Moon takes place on the 7th of April, and this is where Jacob confronts Edward and Bella, reminds them about the treaty, and gives Bella her motorcycle back, which causes some beef. So New Moon ends on the 7th of April and Eclipse kicks off on the 14th of May. Once again, trouble is afoot with rogue vampires running amok, Alice's visions, and Edward withholding information from Bella. Edward is intensely overbearing from the 15th of May through to the 25th of May, where Bella makes a break from the shackles of his love to visit Jacob at La Push and announce that she's Switzerland. In the five days between the 31st of May and the 5th of June, Alice holds Bella hostage at the request of Edward. Bella tells Jacob that she will be a vampire soon and he goes berserk and says some really hateful things. They realise another vampire has been inside her house with potentially sinister intentions. Bella spends some time at La Push and learns about Werewolf Legends and the Third Wife. Alice plans a graduation party, and Edward and Bella discuss their imminent marriage. So a lot going on. In five days. In five days. My God. June 7th is the first day of finals, and on the second day of finals, the very next day, Jacob tells Bella he loves her, kisses her without her permission, and Bella breaks her hand, punching his face.

Eryn 12:11

Just like, how do they even have time to hang out in the middle of finals?

Laura 12:14

I was just about to say, why is she hanging out during finals? I know. Just wait a week. On the 11th of June, Bella puts the puzzle together and realized Victoria is behind it all, and the wolves and vamps get down to business and form an alliance, quick smart. Over the next few days, some stuff happens, but honestly, it's too boring to mention. Alice discusses graduation outfits, Bella sleeps and also gets a charm bracelet.

Bridget 12:35

Fairy 2000.

Eryn 12:38

I remember frothing that the first time reading it, though. I love it.

Bridget 12:42

Just one little comment about the charm bracelet. She is so dumb. She was like, wait, it's a diamond? What did you think it was? Yeah, you know.

Eryn 12:49

And like, how is it being crystal somehow better than it being diamond anyway?

Bridget 12:52

Like goodness me. Anyway.

Eryn 12:55

Sorry.

Bridget 12:56

Brush it off. Walk it out, ladies.

Laura 13:01

So on the 13th, Edward finally concedes to feat. He will tap that while she is still human as long as she marries him first. Bella gives in, gets a new charm for her bracelet, and also an engagement ring. Oh, I forgot about that. The next day, battle of the foot. We get the infamous space heater scene. Uh, and when dawn breaks, Jacob is learning of their engagement and threatening suicide. It's so extreme. It's so extreme. Bella kisses Jacob, realizes she loves him, tries to get freaky with Edward out of guilt, and is at the center of yet another werewolf attack, F's up the plan, and is thinking once again only of herself. Finally, she says good day to the Volturi and calls it a day. What a busy bee. It's been a big it's been a big couple of days. With all that done and dusted, the next day, on the 16th of June, Bella and Edward tell Alice about the wedding, she shows them a dress she has already picked out, and likely that evening they break the wedding news to Charlie. This book takes place over the course of a month. Get fucked. That's not possible. Eclipse kicks off on the 14th of May and wraps up on the 16th of June. That is insane! What? And like in some respects it makes things that short period of time makes things a bit better for me. Like I thought Edward was absolutely controlling her for months and months, like banning her from spending time with Jacob. I don't think it's right he did that in the first place, but if he only did it a couple of days and then changed his tune, it's a lot more tolerable. You're like, one day's fine.

Eryn 14:41

Kidnap is okay if you do it in small doses. Disclaimer, no, it's not.

Bridget 14:48

Between one and three days. It's a legal term, you wouldn't understand.

Eryn 14:56

It's so Stephanie Meyer writes these books and ties them into the school year, so it makes or like tricks you into thinking that it's for the duration of the school year each book, and so it's a year, but as Laura's done with these timelines, it's obviously a lot less than that. And this book is really long, but it's a month.

Laura 15:16

It's like the longest one and the shortest timeline. The longest one we've read so far.

Eryn 15:20

We're what, like 18 months into their relationship? And they're getting engaged. And as we discussed in the New Moon episode, Edward has been absent for six of those months.

Laura 15:31

And on top of that, Bella is still undecided about how serious her feelings for Jacob are, and if they're something she's willing to kind of sacrifice Edward for. She's she's toing and froing. There's been a few attempts on her life. She doesn't want to get married, seemingly, but she's doing it anyway.

Eryn 15:52

Yeah, like that whole thing is it's just insane that she was like, yeah, okay, let's get married. Even though she doesn't want to get married, she has no interest in being married. She's obviously got doubts about her relationship. She thinks she maybe has feelings for another guy. How in her brain is that time to get engaged? And after all the shit she's given her mum for like being fickle and like immature and shit, and she's like, Yeah, this is the right time to be engaged.

Laura 16:20

Maybe we can start off talking about the marriage because it's kind of a source of lots of conflict throughout this book. Seeing as we're already here, like I don't see why not. Nothing that new is happening with Bella, apart from the fact that she's getting worse, and I think the marriage element is a key component of what made me so annoyed at her throughout this book.

Eryn 16:39

Bella is on her high horse about Renee for the whole series. Even when she's debating whether or not she should get engaged, she thinks about Renee and Renee's choices, and I can't remember if she actually says it or if it's like inferred that she doesn't want to make her mother's mistakes.

Bridget 16:54

It's not quite that. I think that Renee has drilled it into her from a very young age. Yeah. Do not make my mistakes. So I think she's scared of what her mum is going to say. I'm sure at the same time she would be judgy because it's Bella. It's going against what she's been taught.

Laura 17:09

I think what you're saying is right, because there's a quote on page 45 where she says, I couldn't help but think of my mother's most life-altering mistake. Silly and romantic, getting married fresh out of high school to a man she barely knew, then producing me a year later. She'd always promised me that she had no regrets, that I was the best gift her life had ever given her. And yet she drilled it into me over and over. Smart people took marriage seriously. Mature people went to college and started careers before they got deeply involved in a relationship. She knew I would never be as thoughtless and as goofy and as small town as she had been. I was struggling to interpret that as well, because I I think I thought that was Bella saying, like, oh, she thought I'd never be those things, and yet here I am, like, I'm gonna do it. What did you did you think that was how she was interpreting that as well?

Eryn 17:58

Based on like the word use, I assumed that those were words that Renee had used to describe herself. And um Bella was yeah, saying, she thought I'd never do it, but here I am doing it. Which again, it it's it's so sad. She's so mean about Renee, even though she does the exact same shit that Renee did.

Laura 18:18

Yeah. The exact same thing. I had not really noticed that until you pointed it out in a previous episode, how she is exactly Renee in the decision she makes, but she continuously shits on Renee and like looks down on her life in a way. I think that's so interesting.

Eryn 18:34

This book is another example of where I'm trying to balance, like, this is a teenage character doing teenager things, but also just being an asshole. Like, she's so mean to Charlie in this book. And acknowledging that Charlie is also a bit of a prick in this book, he is not always on Bella's side. Not that he has to be as a parent, but he should probably be on some of these issues. But she's always like, fuck it, I'll just move out there, and I don't give a shit about you, Dad. Like, I can do whatever I want. And he's like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, let's dial it back, let's simmer down a little bit here. Just having a discussion, Bella. Yeah, like we don't have to go to the like moving out place. Maybe you don't need to marry this guy, like yeah, like like I am a Charlie Stan, but he's trying his best here. He is trying to parent an unparentable child at this point, and she is lashing out in the hugest of ways, and he doesn't know what to do. And like he makes really good points that she should be hanging out with other friends and other people and not centering her whole life on Edward Cullen. And yeah, he's definitely a bit pushy on the Jacob thing, and that's really weird, and very forgiving when Jacob kisses her without consent, but then later is like, no one should ever do anything you don't consent to.

Bridget 19:46

Like, but in front of Jacob, he's accepting of it, which is like the the worst bit. Sending mixed messages.

Laura 19:53

That was so disappointing. I was like, oh Charlie, please.

Eryn 19:57

Yeah, we were all ruining for you.

Laura 20:01

Bella is just really on one in this book. She's learned a lot of manipulation over the past few books because if we could return back to the marriage, I think something that I found really staggering was towards the end of the book when Edward is giving her the ring and they start laying out these conditions they have for one another, conditions Edward has if he's going to turn her into a vampire, conditions Bella has. Yeah, like they're calling them compromises, but I don't think you should be making compromises in these aspects of your life. These are very important decisions, and you shouldn't you should never be getting married with conditions attached, I don't think. I I don't know. Like, I suppose it depends on how extreme they are, but these are no small ask. There's this quote from Bella on page 445. She says, Tell me if I have anything wrong. I tried to sound detached. Your demands are marriage. I couldn't say the word without making a face. Paying my tuition, more time, and you wouldn't mind if my vehicle went a little faster. I raised my eyebrows. Did I get everything? That's a hefty list. Only the first is a demand. He seemed to be having a hard time keeping a straight face. The others are merely requests. Bella says, and my lone, solitary little demand is Demand? he interrupted, suddenly serious again. Yes, demand. His eyes narrowed. And this is where Bella says, Getting married is a stretch for me. I'm not giving in unless I get something in return. I just found that breathtaking in its hypocrisy, I guess. Because the whole marriage thing came around because she has demanded she wants to be equal. She wants to be a vampire, and he has told her again and again, No, I don't want that for you. I don't think that's a good decision. If you want these things, they're not coming to you via me. But she keeps pushing him and pushing him. And granted, like he does, you know, he can say no, but she's not making it very easy for him. I agree.

Eryn 22:00

But I also think what's interesting here, so in this whole book, everyone is telling Bella what to do all the time. And I think the marriage thing is meant to be seen as her pushing back and reclaiming her power and like making her own stand. But she's not, because in the end, she's still doing exactly what she was told to do, which was to get married. It's so interesting to me the way that everyone just decides. Like the graduation party was decided for her, her outfit was decided for her, the wedding outfit was decided for her, the whole thing. And most of the time they talk about her like she's not even there. It's disgusting, like ignoring the way that Edward and Jacob do all that macho bullshit and make decisions on her behalf while she's present but not in the conversation somehow. Like I think the wedding thing is just super interesting because we're supposed to think that that's her doing it on her terms, and it just isn't.

Laura 22:58

She's not. Like when they get partway through to like the end of the day of the wedding and she actually sees herself for the first time. She's never seen the dress, she has no idea what her hair looks like, she has no idea what her makeup looks like. And it's the end of her wedding day. She's had no input on this. She didn't even want to get married. Maybe that's why.

Eryn 23:16

I suspect what we're meant to feel is that oh Bella doesn't care about those things. Bella She's just not like other girls. She's not like other girls, she doesn't care what she looks like because she thinks that she's not hot anyway, or whatever. But it just really comes across as she's being forced to do all these things. Like she is the Cullins doll, and she just gets dressed up and put in these situations because she's the human doll and they've not had these human experiences.

Laura 23:41

It makes for a continuously uncomfortable read because it's not just one major life decision she's grappling with in this book. It's like at least three. As well as that, she seems to be a little bit on the fence about becoming a vampire. She keeps having these moments of clarity where she's like, oh shit, like I I would never be able to see Charlie again. Like I'd have to completely cut myself off from my friends. I'd have to make all these excuses. I would never get to do XYZ. And she has these moments that aren't too little too late, but they are sort of coming to her at an unusual time as the reality becomes a little bit more clear.

Bridget 24:19

I've always been in two minds about the whole wedding storyline. I've never understood why it matters to her to get married. She's already made her choice. She's going to be a vampire, she's going to become immortal so she can spend the rest of her life with Edward. So I don't understand what her problem is with getting married, and I understand she's worried about her image, but she's really not because she's the second she meets them, she's changed her whole identity. She everything she does is orbiting around him. So I don't know why all of a sudden she's worried about what everybody will think. She doesn't care about what anyone else, she doesn't care about anyone else, full stop. So I don't understand why it was such a struggle for her to accept getting married. But then at the same time, I don't understand why Edward put such a big emphasis on marriage, and maybe it's because of the religion side of Stephanie My, like that aspect of it. Once again, I just think he should know if she's willing to become a vampire and he thinks that is the worst thing in the world. Why does he want her to get married?

Eryn 25:23

I agree. I think this is an interesting line for Bella to draw as well, because as you said, she's already committed her whole life to this. She said time and time again, this is it for me, this is forever for me. Marriage should not be scarier than that idea. Like, that's actually the same idea that you're with Edward forever and you're gonna get married because you're forever. Like it's the same thing. Exactly. The call is coming from inside the house.

Bridget 25:48

But I also think that I don't know if it's if it's marriage that she is reluctant to do. I think it is the wedding, the actual event. And I understand that Alice wanted to plan the wedding, but get married at the Registry Office or whatever it's called. Get married at the courthouse, it solves all their problems. Everyone's happy. Like no one knows, no one has to know.

Eryn 26:10

But I think also like the concept of it being a marriage is probably the first time it's really been real to Bella what forever might look like because marriage is something she conceptually understands and she's seen it break down before. Now she's like, oh, but if we get married and it doesn't work, then I'm gonna be just like my parents, and they thought it was forever as well, and then they got married and it fucked it up. Like, it's probably also that she just couldn't conceptualise what forever looked like or felt like until marriage got applied to it, and then maybe she realized that forever isn't achievable or like a real thing in her experience.

Laura 26:50

It would have served to strengthen Bella's personality a lot more if rather than having the Cullins make her decisions for her, she had said to them, It's not the issue of marriage that freaks me out, it's the spectacle, you know, I don't like being seen in front of a bunch of people, like, let's just make it a small thing. I want to do XYZ. Like that would have been a compromise. That would have been her standing up for herself, that would have been her having thoughts and feelings and opinions. I just think, you know, what's lost by us doing that.

Eryn 27:21

And you're absolutely right, that's an actual compromise compared to how compromises are weaponized in this story.

Bridget 27:27

I would love to know once again, everything that Stephanie Meyer was thinking, but I think it would be interesting to hear her opinion on when is the right time for Bella and Edward to get married, because Bella thinks that right now she's too young. Is it after college? Is it 25? Is it 30? Because as we realize in the last recording of the last episode, Stephanie got married herself when she was about 20. For me, I feel like that is way too young. Like I'm 29 and still struggling to plan a wedding. But as Erin said yesterday, child bride at 20. So I would really love to know what is Bella's ideal age for marriage. I don't think she says it at any point.

Laura 28:08

And that's the thing, like Bella never gives them the alternative. She always gives them a really outrageous compromise. She never says, I don't want to get married now, but in five years' time, that sounds better to me. Or I don't want a big wedding, I want to do it like this. She always says something pretty crazy, like a pretty unmatchable demand. I don't think that's a healthy portrayal of compromise.

Eryn 28:33

It's not, but it's also how a child compromises. It's true. Like she is a child. She she is a child, but she also doesn't know how to have these conversations. She's never had to actually compromise in her life. And so she's learning these skills and how to compromise from Edward's weaponized compromises, like we were talking about before. Like, she's just learning these really unhealthy relationship tactics from the Cullens and thinking it's okay. It's so bad. Bridget, before you touched very briefly on the virtue conversation and whether or not it's influenced by religion, I think that that was a very thinly veiled attempt at bringing in no sex before marriage, which whether or not Edward believes in that is kind of irrelevant to me. I just think that that's like such a stupid thing to put in there. Like you can be turned into a vampire, but there's no fucking before marriage, goddammit.

Laura 29:37

Like I think it is really interesting. I have seen Twilight referred to as purity porn before. Yes. Because as we've noted, they're completely sexless up to this point. And I think it's interesting because I remember these books as being quite raunchy. Like I thought they were really something. And I did not register at all that they didn't have sex until breaking dawn. And reading them again, I was like, holy shit. But it is definitely very interesting, like those religious undertones, almost overtones, uh, of like virtue, saving someone's soul, no sex before marriage. Then almost like the punishment that comes in breaking dawn as a result of like unfettered love making or whatever. Granted, they are married, but that will be, God knows, a really interesting conversation when we get there.

Bridget 30:27

They barely make out even in Eclipse. They only really start making out when she thinks they're about to have sex, which they don't. She doesn't even they don't even talk about it. She just like takes it a bit further than she normally does. But I it's it's just funny, like the distinction, like kissing, sex, there's no in-between.

Laura 30:45

That's it's that's it for them. That is so true, and I think something that we haven't even spoken about as well is how Bella is always almost like blacking out from making out with Edward, like she loses the plot completely, and I think that is a really interesting way of portraying it. Like Bella is unrestrained, she is wanting him desperately, and then he's setting up these barriers of like you're taking it too far, you will be damaged, hurt, punished, killed, whatever. If we cross this line of taking this to a place where it shouldn't go, and maybe that place is just the fact that he is a vampire and he has the power to kill her, he thirsts for her blood, or maybe there is some sort of subliminal messaging there that they should not be taking this relationship any further because it would be impure and not good.

Bridget 31:42

I think he doesn't even take his shirt off until breaking dawn. Like, I'm pretty sure she's stunned by his shirtless body when he's in the water.

Eryn 31:52

Yeah, because she only sees a glimpse of it in the meadow. It's so funny. There's so much I want to say about this thing because, like you were saying, Laura, like they talk a lot about how she will be quote unquote damaged after this, and we're meant to think that it's just about him being stronger than her and physically hurting her, but the talk around virtue and that she would be damaged goods if they had sex outside of marriage is disgusting. Like the concept of purity and virtue that she's only virtuous if she's a virgin or having sex inside a marriage, disgusting. But what I cannot fathom is the inference that he is still a virgin and that he doesn't want her to take his virtue when he's 117 years old. You cannot be telling me he's not been having sex for any of that time. He's never thought of it, Erin. It's never crossed his mind.

Bridget 32:48

It's not possible. There have been people that have expressed interest in him, but he has he's never felt anything for them, he's always pushed them away. Right. So he's never felt anything for anyone.

Laura 33:00

Which is insane because if we are to believe he is mentally frozen as a 17-year-old boy, that in no way checks out.

Eryn 33:09

Nah. But also, it does also kind of check out that he is this like awkward little virgin because every time they start making out, and I'm guessing he's starting to get a bone, he like chucks her across the room.

Laura 33:21

Like, calm down, Edward. Imagine how that would make you feel. I really, really feel for Bella in these moments where he's punishing her with silence or he's punishing her for feeling human, like whether intentional or not, like these lines in the sand he draws between like Bella, you're making this too hard for me, throwing her across the room, pushing her away from him, that rejection would absolutely shatter me as a 17-year-old. As a 29-year-old, that would shatter me. I always feel so bad for her and those bits.

Eryn 33:51

And it's again so manipulative. It's like, yeah, we can kiss. Well, we can't kiss that much. What are you doing? That's so hard for me. No, I won't have sex with you until we get married, so let's get married. No, like just no conversation about, I don't know, taking it slow, perhaps, or like actual boundary setting.

Laura 34:10

As a 14-15-year-old, when I was reading this, I I didn't think that deeply about it. I don't think I had much going on in my head about like the undertones of this. I remember I do remember feeling bad for Bella and feeling rejected. I remember thinking, what's the big deal? Um, can't they just have sex?

Eryn 34:26

But I mean the whole book. Like just get it over the books go, boys.

Laura 34:32

But I mean, I didn't I wasn't thinking very much about the messaging, and I never really thought twice about Stephanie Meyer and I didn't know what a Mormon was and all of that kind of business. So it's interesting because there are the messages that you just absorb anyway, regardless of whether you understand where they come from or not.

Bridget 34:50

Well what I I think or have always thought about this is even if you believe in souls, heaven, afterlife, absolution, whatever, even if you believe that, he's worried that if they sleep together, they will lose their virtues. They are immortal. There is no afterlife because they are living forever. Even if there is a heaven, they're never going. Yeah. Because they're living for the rest of eternity. Why is he so worried about something that's not ever going to happen? They will be forever.

Laura 35:23

They are immortal. That is a really good plot hole, mate. Well, both of them have threatened suicide multiple times over these three books so far, so you never know.

Eryn 35:32

They really do just be being like, well, I'll just kill myself then. I'll just do it.

Bridget 35:37

It's so like if they're gonna live their happy life together as a married couple, that's it.

Laura 35:43

Continuing on with the kind of sex and virtue theme, I think it's a good time to segue into a conversation about Jacob. And I think this is definitely a part of a larger theme throughout the book, which is like vampires, good, virtuous, classy, controlled, care about where you go when you die versus werewolves. Angry, hot-headed, uncontrolled, cannot be tamed, non-consensual, kissing bad boys.

Eryn 36:13

It's very interesting that we see Edward always drawing these lines and being like, no, I can't cross these lines, I'm so controlled. But then in enforcing those boundaries, he gets really angry and behaves like a freak compared to Jacob, who does have anger issues as a result of his turning. But when he needs to really have control, such as when he's around the vampires, he has it. Like they always say he's out of control, but he's not. For a lot of Eclipse, he's in his human form, right? He has the control, and yet we see him do these really fucked up things. Like all these unsolicited, non-consensual kisses in this book are so gross. It's gross to read them and it's gross to hear about them. What I also think is really gross about the kiss is that Bella has no autonomy in it. The lines are literally like, I clear my mind and let it happen.

Laura 37:08

My body took over.

Eryn 37:10

Disgusting.

Laura 37:11

It very closely toes the line, or I don't think it really toes it actually, between lust and rape. The language that she uses to describe these scenes, particularly the second kiss after she asks him to kiss her.

Bridget 37:27

She's manipulated into asking. Yes.

Laura 37:29

Her response is shut down, accept it. Don't antagonize him, don't push him. And the language used around him kissing her is forceful and violent and angry. And I was a bit scared reading it, honestly, as an adult. I was like, this is distinctly not good.

Eryn 37:46

I hate this. It's gross. And we mentioned it a bit in the New Moon episode and haven't really touched on it yet here. Jacob has huge character assassination in this book. I don't believe that Jacob would kiss her that forcefully without consent. Maybe like a peck or whatever in the heat of the moment, and then when she doesn't respond, maybe pull back. I could see that for Jacob. The way he does it here, it just seems so out of character and it's really fucked up. And you can't take the fact that they're people of colour out of this. The way that she's saying these people of colour are animals and they are uncontrolled compared to these white purists who can do no wrong ever, even though they do so much wrong. Like it's just really messed up. And if she wanted to write Jacob kissing her and it being a point of tension for them, she could absolutely have done that without making it so disgusting and so forceful and really aggressive. Really aggressive. It makes me hate Jacob after I've just been turned into liking him in New Moon. Like he's a completely different character in this book.

Laura 38:52

I have the quote here. Bella has asked Jacob to kiss her. She says, I knew he would take advantage of the situation. I expected it. I held very still, my eyes closed, my fingers curled into fists at my side, as his hands caught my face and his lips found mine with an eagerness that was not far from violence. I could feel his anger as his mouth discovered my passive resistance. One hand moved to the nape of my neck, twisting into a fist around the roots of my hair. The other hand grabbed roughly at my shoulder, shaking me, then dragging me to him. His hand continued down my arm, finding my wrist and pulling my arm around his neck. I left it there, my hand still tightly balled up, unsure how far I could go in my desperation to keep him alive. All the while his lips, disconcertingly, soft and warm, tried to force a response out of mine.

Bridget 39:40

The first one is just as bad. I hate how this one is described. And his reaction after. Like what he says to her is terrible as well. She says no before he's even kissed her. He kissed me angrily, roughly, his other hand gripping tight around the back of my neck, making escape impossible. I shoved against his chest with all my strength, but he didn't even seem to notice. And then she grabbed at his face, trying to push it away, failing again. He seemed to notice this time though, and it aggravated him. His lips forced mine open and I could feel his hot breath in my mouth, and she just shut down. He says something at some point like it had to be better than kissing that vampire or something.

Laura 40:18

Yikes. She was craps. She punched you. Yeah. And she said no before you even started. She said no. Prior to this point, he has said, I love you, and she has said, I don't feel the same. Say what you will about her using him, that still in no way gives him permission to do that to her. It's no is no. Like it is a line in the sand. It cannot be any more clear.

Eryn 40:43

And I think because of how gross those scenes make you feel, when Bella comes home and she's got a broken wrist and Charlie's like, oh, what happened? She's like, Oh, I punched Jacob because he tried to kiss me, and he's like, ah, that a boy, like Charlie, mate, like so disappointing. And I guess he doesn't know the context to which it happened. He wasn't there, and she's obviously not told him, but that's bro, buddy, come on.

Laura 41:08

And then the only lesson that Charlie gives her as a follow-up to that is when he's like, Oh, you must have been punching wrong. Like, next time, make sure that you like keep your thumbs out inside your fist or whatever it is. I don't even know. I'd be punching wrong too. But that's not the lesson there. I think he does say something like, Oh, he shouldn't have done that.

Bridget 41:28

As much as I like Jacob, no one should be kissing you without your consent.

Eryn 41:31

And then it's like, I never thought I would have had to teach you how to throw a punch. Or even teach her how to deal with these situations in other ways.

Bridget 41:39

And you can stop doing your part and encouraging them.

Eryn 41:41

Yeah, exactly.

Bridget 41:43

I've even felt uncomfortable every time I read this book about the physical intimacy between Jacob and Bella because it's forced upon Bella as well, and he's always wanting to hold her hand, he's got her his arm around her all the time, he kisses her on the f on the head, he is always touching her, and even that is crossing a line.

Eryn 42:01

She's made her choice. Jacob is so messy in this book. When he didn't have to be, he could still be an antagonist and an alternate love interest without this really gross behaviour.

Laura 42:12

That's the thing that kills me is because when he was being nice, she was almost there. Like I was so happy in those parts in New Moon where he was nice and friendly, and her sunshine Jacob that she says, he was the perfect antidote to Edward. And what they had was so healthy and so functional. And then they've twisted him into this horrible, nasty man, or boy still. And it wasn't necessary, like the actual convincing love triangle was for Jacob to just stay being a good option rather than this toxic man that she has an interest in for some reason.

Eryn 42:48

Yeah, and we've talked a little bit about the like macho 1v1 between Edward and Jacob. Personally, I really like the scene where Jacob says to Edward, like, I almost had her. Even though it makes Bella like an object and stuff, I like the antagonism of being like, you left, I almost had her, and then you came back and you fucked it all up. But I wish he continued, like you said, on that positive trajectory and didn't do all this gross shit and instead just pointed out the obvious to Bella that no one else was ever pointing out. Babe, what are you doing? That he should have been the voice of reason.

Bridget 43:24

He's in a unique position. Instead of flipping out every time something's mentioned. Yeah. Like bring her down to earth instead of reacting.

Eryn 43:31

Jacob is quite reasonable. He's been reasonable in New Moon and stuff. Like he has a pretty level head on his shoulders.

Laura 43:38

So I think at the top of the episode, we sort of alluded to the end of New Moon, where there's an epilogue where Jacob rocks up and reminds Edward and Bella of the treaty between the Cullens and the Quillu tribe, or the werewolves. The treaty states that the treaty will be void if any of the Cullens bite another human. The Cullens and The extra vampires that are flowing in and out of forks have forced the transition of the wolves. Something that I think is very important to note is that the Quillute people aren't an invention of Stephanie Meyer. They are a real Native American nation that live in La Push in Washington. And I have an article pulled up as well where, in conjunction with the Burke Museum in Seattle, they have been working to correct the misconceptions that the series has started about them.

Bridget 44:26

I think I remember reading an interview with Stephanie Meyer where she was talking about her creation process, and she was like, I'd just been researching like werewolves and myths and things, and then I'd already decided on my location being forks, and then I was like, wait, there's actually a tribe nearby, and how funny. Like she was sort of like, what a coincidence it was meant to happen. Yikes.

Laura 44:48

Yeah, just profiting off this Summit Entertainment who produced the movies or distributed the movies, I'm not quite sure. And Stephanie Meyer have made an insane amount of money profiting off the stories or the history of these real people, and apparently they have not received a dime. I'm looking at an article called Adjusting the Focus on Twilight's Misconceptions by Dr. Deanna Dart Newton, who is a curator of Native American Ethnology. And it mentions that with the recent pop culture phenomenon Twilight, the Quilute people have found themselves thrust into the global spotlight. The reservation, a once quiet and somewhat isolated place, is now a popular tourist destination for thousands of middle school aged girls and their families. In the wake of the popularity of the book and film, the Quillite tribe has been forced to negotiate the rights to their own oral histories, ancient regalia, and mask designs, and even the sanctity of their cemetery.

Eryn 45:41

For her to have had that big of an impact on them, and then also to just treat it like, oh Teehi, what a coincidence. I would be fuming if I was them.

Laura 45:49

There's this another article I'm looking at called Cultural Theft in Twilight, so it's also on the Burke Museum website. So it seems like one of the main offences here is that Stephanie Myers sort of fabricated the origin story or altered it to suit her own needs or the needs of the story as she sees them. Apparently the Quilute origin story that Stephanie Meyer has used in the books is relatively unknown. But in presenting a real tribe to the far reaches of Twilight's audience, she's quote unquote unjustly rewritten Quilute identity into that of magical werewolves. It's so it's so cheap and hey.

Eryn 46:25

This is kind of in line with the comments that we made during our Red, White, and Royal Blue episode, where you can base something in reality but make it different enough so that you're not messing with actual history, which is I think probably what she should have done here. If she wanted to go down the Native American route here, she should have done it A with respect and with research, but also she should have developed her own nation that's not based in any real nation, but is based on a lot of the principles that these people apply. So it is still authentic and it's still real without actually impacting a real group of people.

Bridget 47:03

It didn't even need to be a different culture, cultural group. It could have even just been a family bloodline.

Eryn 47:09

Aside from the fact that she's obviously gotten their history wrong and has just rewritten it in her favour. I think also the way she makes these characters behave would reflect really poorly on these people as well. And if I was them, I would feel really upset at the representation that they're getting here, because it's not good representation. They're seen in really negative lights, and then they also get tied up in these really weird things, such as imprinting. A lot of what we learn about imprinting in this book is really questionable, and I certainly would not want to be associated with that as a real life group of people.

Bridget 47:49

And once again, comparing them to animals. I think before I said that it's it's a weird choice for Stephanie Meyer to make to take someone's culture and just rework parts of it that suit her story, but it reminds me of the scene from an episode of Parks and Recreation when there is a Native American man and he says, white people love a curse. Yeah. He says, White people love a curse. And I think that it's the same sort of thing. She's used it to try to s make it seem mystic and magical and like a little bit spooky and otherworldly, but yes, it didn't have to be that way for our benefit.

Laura 48:26

Like them we I think like white people are like obsessed with like mysticism and these people that have this connection to the land and earth and this like folkloric kind of quality that is something I mean I personally can't relate to, and I think that there is a tendency in this kind of media or I don't know, fiction or whatever, to absolutely just wring indigenous cultures dry and just take whatever last drop that we we enjoy from that kind of thing for our own personal pleasure.

Bridget 48:57

It's really the like poca hunter's treatment.

Eryn 49:00

They trivialise it, make it so commercialized and take away the reality of it. These are real stories and they can be really impactful to the people that they come from, and so it's really unfair to just treat them as like entertainment value.

Laura 49:16

And you know what? Like she truly could have just made it up because when I reread this, I got to the chapter where they were sharing their stories and the t the story of the third wife, and I thought to myself, I have no memory of this. And I honestly think just like Carlisle's chapter, I I must have just been like, skip, skip, skip. Like it's not Edward and Bella. I was only, you know, like everything that wasn't Edward and Bella was like the salmon photo chapters of The Lord of the Rings gonna be like skip every time. I did not give a shit. She didn't have to misuse somebody's culture to make her story interesting because teenage girls, at this point in time, teenage girls did not give a shit about that. Like I did not care, I did not know that it was connected to real life people. It could have been made up. They were werewolves, it didn't have to be connected to anything in reality for me. It was wolf, vampire, girl, hooray.

Bridget 50:14

It's also very interesting that the tribe has never been financially compensated or even just supported by the people that have made so much money off their culture. Especially when their community is located in a tsunami zone. A catastrophic earthquake can wipe out the community in less than 10 minutes, and an entire generation of the people will cease to exist. So I have seen a lot of people on TikTok talking about donating to them. So if you are interested in supporting, maybe that would be a good place to head to.

Eryn 50:42

Let's talk a bit more about the imprinting because we get a lot of the background on how imprinting works in this book. It's first brought up in New Moon when they um explain the Sam, Leah, Emily love triangle. Um, but we get a lot more context in this one as we learn more about the other wolves in Jacob's pack, and we learn that some of them have started finding their mates as well, which makes Jacob feel very lonely. He's a little lonely boy. But we get some gross, gross background to imprinting in this, including that you can imprint with literal children and babies because it's just an instant connection and there's no knowing when it'll happen or what'll spark it. And Jacob tells Bella, Quill has imprinted on Emily, Sam's mate, on her niece, Claire, who is three years old. Two, two years old, everybody. This is a 15-year-old boyslash mad werewolf imprinting on a two-year-old. And when Jacob tells Bella, Bella's like, ew, gross. And he's like, nah, it's not like that.

Bridget 51:52

He gets really defensive.

Eryn 51:53

Yeah, he's like, don't make it weird. It's not weird. And it's not like that. He he dials it back a little bit and he's like, look, it doesn't have to be romantic. Like, he just wants to be a really good brother to her, blah, blah, blah. And in that sentence, I'm like, mm, still weird, but if it is just like being a good brotherly figure, that's I can get on board with that.

Laura 52:14

Like, he just-yeah. I'm on board, that's fine.

Eryn 52:18

You're gonna be their mentor, their like life coach, perhaps. Happy days, that sounds great. I would love a life coach. But then it gets weird again because they talk about how he will like wait until she's old enough. And I'm like, A, what is old enough? B, why are you just hanging around this child until she's old enough? Like, you can't say that you're just gonna be like a big brother to them when you're actually waiting around until they are old enough to trigger or start that romantic connection. That's predatory, that's grooming.

Laura 52:52

Like, and it goes against what Jacob is telling us. Like he has that thing, like you said, where he tries to dial it back and said, it's not like that, it's nothing sexual about it at all. But then everything we learn about imprinting after that says, yes, it is sexual because we are repeatedly told in this book, and again, I'm sure we'll have a big, big conversation about this in Breaking Dawn, but they are, they're just waiting it out. Like there is literally a quote in this on page 175 where Jacob says, Quill is not getting any older, he'll just have to be patient for a couple of decades.

Eryn 53:25

Gross. So gross.

Bridget 53:27

I tried really hard to sort of go along with the story this time especially. I don't remember my thoughts. I mean, I always thought it was weird, but I don't really remember any strong thoughts about it. But I tried really hard to go along with the story this time, and when I got to that part in Breaking Dawn where Quill and Claire are at the beach together, I was just so disgusted. She's like hitting him on the head with rocks, and he's finding rocks for her, and she's a literal toddler, using toddler speak, and he's treating her like his daughter, his little sister. I just don't know how in 15 years' time, 16 years' time, how he will be able to separate the child, the baby that he spent time babysitting on the beach and a woman that he's going to be in love with and uh, you know, assuming marry and have a physical relationship with. How can you separate those two things? I don't understand.

Laura 54:16

Another gross thing about imprinting, as well, is that it does for the most part seem to be a one-sided thing. Like the werewolf imprints upon someone. Uh, and Bella does have a a question where she says, Doesn't Claire get a choice? And Jacob says, as if he couldn't win her over. And he goes on to explain, or I think he explains a little bit earlier on when he's first talking about imprinting, he says it's hard to get past that level of commitment and adoration. And I think the idea that Stephanie Meyer tries to give you about imprinting is that if you're just persistent, you can wear down anyone. Like if you just give somebody your everything, if you do every single thing for them, if you obsess over them, if you never ever ever leave them alone, it's in the bag. You got this.

Eryn 55:04

That is the lesson to be learned out of this is that by God, if you try, you will get whoever you want. I had forgotten that he said, why wouldn't she like Quill essentially? Like, it is so bizarre, but it's also such a change on the way they talk about Leah, Sam, and Emily in New Moon. Because there is a bit of sympathy in there for Leah, like she didn't stand a chance, it wasn't her fault, but it's like fucked them all up and like everyone feels bad about it. And then in this one, they're like, nah, like, why wouldn't you want that connection? Why wouldn't you want it written in the stars for you? Like, I fucking wouldn't want it written in the stars for me. No, thank you.

Bridget 55:42

I can't quite find the section that I'm talking about, but I'm pretty sure also that the reason that is given for in printing is so the werewolves can find people with a strong bloodline that will continue on the werewolf gene. And so at its core, it's about reproduction.

Laura 55:58

Selective breeding.

Eryn 55:59

I struggle with the concept of like that mating bond and like the really strong reactions it brings out of people. So in this book, they're talking about their engagement in the tent, and Jacob overhears, and he goes off and he howls and whatever, and it's dramatic. But I kind of like that. I kind of like that he is so upset and their connection is so strong that he has to like turn into his werewolf self and like bay at the moon or whatever. But then I don't like like what happens if they do nothing about their mated bond? Why can't they just choose to do nothing about it?

Laura 56:32

And I think it goes back to the classy controlled vampires and savage wolves, because again, Edward wants to drink Bella's blood, but he manages to master that, and yet it's impossible for any of the wolves to overcome these instincts that are weighing in against them. Spoiler alert, but Jacob has no choice but to imprint on a baby. It's completely out of his control, and yet Edward could manage it. It's gross. I hate it so much, and it's one of those things that makes me wonder again, was Stephanie Meyer always trying to set us up to pick Edward? Because there's just so many things in this book about Jacob that are just so screwed up. I fully think that.

Eryn 57:12

I think New Moon would have come out, people start being Team Jacob in a way they never were in Twilight. Because I didn't realise Jacob's not really in Twilight. Like, but after New Moon, you're you have a clear divide of fans then. And she's like, fuck that, that's not what I wanted. So I'm about to make Jacob the worst character ever, and you're all gonna have to deal with the consequences of my actions.

Laura 57:31

One more thing about imprinting as well, and I don't think this would come to a shock or is any sort of revelation, but there is a quote as well from Jacob when he's describing the experience of imprinting, and he says something like, When you see her, it's like nothing else. I think that just tells you that there are no queer vampires and no queer werewolves.

Eryn 57:50

Yeah, no queer werewolves. I actually was thinking that rereading it now, because we read it the first time. I feel like I wasn't thinking so much about queer representation, but reading it now, I'm like, well, where are the gay vampires and where are the gay werewolves?

Bridget 58:05

Not even vampires are werewolves.

Eryn 58:06

People are the gay people. You're right, you're so right.

Laura 58:09

They can't exist because how can you breed?

Eryn 58:12

Yeah, you're so right. At the end of the day, it is about breeding, and heaven forbid they adopt. Only only straight vampires can adopt. Charlie has obviously imprinted on Carlisle, anyways. I've seen theories online that Alice has imprinted on Bella. Well, see, that's actually, I think this is a good combo to have because, like I said, when I read it the first time, I had no thoughts about any kind of queerness that is or could be in the book. And reading it this time, eyes were opened to Charlie and Carlisle. I had not considered it before this reread. And I'm like, how did I never think about this? But I also know that people thought Alice and Bella should have been gay, or like Rosalie and Bella, which I get less than Alice and Bella. Angela as well. Angela and Ben do give off the vibes of two high school people who are dating to make life easier for each other and are gonna be each other's like bridesmaid and best man at their gay wedding in 10 years. Like that's the vibes I'm getting for those. Angela is Ben's beard. But I do think it's interesting that fans in and fans will do this anyway, but they inserted queer representation in the story when they couldn't find it themselves. And it was so fun and exciting, in a sense, to read this and see those opportunities for queerness that could have existed and maybe should have existed to make it a bit more exciting, a bit more interesting.

Laura 59:36

Excitement was severely missing. Like when you think about the Voltiri rock up in this, there's an army of newborn vampires, Victoria's on the loose, there's werewolves and vampires, and the drama we got was a love triangle. Like it's just so, like, so many missed opportunities, and it took up the whole book.

Eryn 59:56

Yeah, I really, really want to talk about this because as I said at the start, I was excited for this to have some action. There is no action in this book. There is all this build-up. Fucking Victoria is back again. The least exciting antagonist ever. She has nothing going for her. Her like army of baby vampires is actually pretty cool and exciting.

Bridget 1:00:18

I think it's a great concept, and we were actually robbed. We didn't even get to see them in action.

Eryn 1:00:23

I know, that's what I'm gonna say. Like, so one of the most common like comparisons is Twilight and Akata. Twilight is nowhere near Akata, like Akatar is full of battle scenes and action, and even when Feira isn't in the scene, you can see the action and you feel the tension is there. Even though we know it's gonna have a happy ending, the stakes are still high. That's there are no stakes here. There is an army of newborn vampires that get bested in two seconds.

Bridget 1:00:52

And we have to hear so much about the training, and Jasper's exp- We haven't even talked about Jasper yet. Oh my god. Like the experien the you know, the training of the newborn vampires and how dangerous they are and what a threat they are. We don't even see them. We come in and we just see steaming piles of vampire parts and one lone newborn that's left because she surrendered.

Laura 1:01:15

I don't like I just read it, but the reality that we never even saw more than one of the newborn, the alleged newborn army. Oh my god, it's such a good idea. It's because they're in the fucking tent that whole time. That is and the way that Bella like manipulates Edward into not being in the action, like she she uses the fact that he's abandoned her before. She's like, I couldn't bear it. I would die if you were away from me. She's using this such extreme language. And then we have to suffer through that scene. Oh my god.

Bridget 1:01:52

While we're talking about the newborn army, I think maybe we should quickly talk about Jasper's questionable past and just the pride that he has for his past. So Jasper is in the books and in the movies a proud Confederate soldier. He um lied about his age to join and he quickly rose through the ranks. Um, an interesting side to pick for the war. For the African Civil War. Not good, not good. Also, his name, Major Jasper Whitlock, ma'am. So Stephanie, when she was sharing her genius creative process once again, just digs herself into a hole deeper and deeper every time she opens her mouth, it seems, but she found Jasper and Whitlock in the Confederate Army roles. They weren't together. They were Jasper someone and someone Whitlock, but she worked together. And then I was thinking that surely in the movie they didn't make a point of saying Confederate Army, but no, they did in the movie as well. And so if you couple that with the canon fact that vampires are frozen at their age of development, both physically and mentally, you would have to assume that Jasper is a big old fucking writer. Yeah. He's a skinhead with curls, basically.

Eryn 1:03:13

You have blown my mind.

Bridget 1:03:15

And so Alice as well was in the I don't know, early 18th century or 1800s, I can't remember, but she was in Mississippi. So I mean, things aren't looking too good for her either, because I I've seen a lot of talk online about how no, no, no, Alice changed Jasper. She helped him. But Stephanie has said they are frozen at their physical and mental development, the age that they were. So I don't think we can pretend that any of them are anti-racist.

Laura 1:03:45

And also the fact that throughout his whole description of his time in the army, they spend no small amount of time on it, and he never says, I was a confused young man, or you know, I I didn't know what I was signing up for. He's like, Hell yeah, brother, I was in the Confederate army. The best parts of his life were in the army.

Eryn 1:04:04

And it's an interesting comparison to Carlisle, because when we talk about his history, he's like, Oh, look, I was a bit confused in the beginning. I did some things I probably shouldn't have done. But Jasper has none of that reflection. He's just like, here's all the crazy shit that I did. Even when he talks about being in the newborn army, he doesn't necessarily say that he didn't like it or thought he was doing the wrong thing. It's like he just suddenly saw that there was another option and was like, I'll try that one out for a while.

Laura 1:04:35

I love that the research that Stephanie decided to do was in relation to this. I don't think like we we discussed, I think, in the Twilight episode, the vast historical inaccuracies in this series. And she's like, no, no, no. I want these names to be right. Yeah.

Eryn 1:04:54

I want real Confederate soldier races. But what also is funny, and I've said it 50 million times in these episodes, is that I didn't remember anything about these stories beforehand. And I remember even before we decided to read these books, seeing on Twitter someone being like, Oh, remember how Jasper is um a Confederate soldier? And I was like, surely not. Surely that is not true. And I'd kind of forgotten about it, and then when I was reading it for this, I was like, Holy shit, that's like an actual canon fact. That's not even people reaching through like some referenced material that is it is on the page.

Bridget 1:05:33

I remember having the same revelation as well because I don't I mean, I wouldn't have really understood the implications of a Confederate soldier when I was reading this as a 13 year old.

Laura 1:05:43

One random thing that I did like throughout Jasper's training about the newborn army was when the wolves and the werewolves did team up, and I especially liked the scene when the wolves came out of the trees for the first time, and the pack was way bigger than they expected it, and Edward and Emmett, I think it was, were like, hell yeah, so cool. They were like really excited. Yes. And I just wanted so badly. Like, I know we get little glimpses of it eventually. Thank God Seth Clearwater exists because I love Sweetman with together. But I just feel that we were robbed of these two teams working together as well. Like if the Volturi or Victoria, or had we seen the newborn army, if we had had any actual action, it would have been so good to see these two cool teams working together.

Eryn 1:06:30

I really loved the training scenes. I did think they went on for a while. Like, I don't know why we had like three rounds of training scenes for a battle we don't even fucking see. I also loved when the wolves came out and they lay down in their wolf form and like Edward is speaking on behalf of Sam and they start like sparring with Jasper. I just think that's so cool. And you know, Victoria is such an anticlimactic ultimate baddie. Like she's been the baddie for three books, and her ending is nothing. Like there is no return on investment with her. But you know what would have been sick is if the newborn army war or like battle was looking really bleak. Like maybe we got some injured werewolves, the vampires are now outnumbered, and Jacob and Edward are up in this fucking mountain in the tent, and Edward's overheard what's happened, and he's had to be like, well, fuck it, we ball. Let's go. Let's figure out how to pass Bella between us while we fight and like bring them into the action, and they are like struggling to fight, they're struggling to defend their families, they're struggling to both defend Bella. Like that should have been the pinnacle of the teamwork that they've developed. Like, let's also not forget that the tent scene is like full of Jacob and Edward's enemies to lover. Like, it is them just being like, just kiss, just kiss already. Like, that is the ultimate enemies to lovers time. It would have been perfect to culminate that in them working together, like the two of them, side by side, to best the baddies.

Bridget 1:08:09

It really is a what pad scene though. Like could that have come from the mind of a 13-year-old girl? Yep, definitely. What? Your boyfriend and the other one that loves you, you have to share a room, share a tent. There's only one tenth. Oh, it's incredible.

Laura 1:08:24

I mean, I ate that up. I love it. It's one of my favourite scenes. I was so excited to get to it because I was like, I can't quite remember, but I remember it being good. And when I got there, I was like, what?

Eryn 1:08:36

It's not as good, but it's still so good. It's still one of my favourites. Yeah.

Laura 1:08:40

And like what you were saying, Erin, with how it should have been the culmination of their friendship. I think it's disappointing because any headway they seem to make is almost immediately a raise, time and time again. But I loved in that scene where I think Edward says, I think in another life you and I would have been really good friends. Yes! And then Jacob's kind of like, oh, maybe, maybe not. I can't remember. I think he says something to kind of shut it down.

Bridget 1:09:04

Yeah, even if you weren't trying to kill kill the woman that I love or something like that.

Laura 1:09:07

Yeah. And I liked those lines. And I And they should have kissed. They should have kissed.

Bridget 1:09:12

I don't want to make excuses for Edward, but or even like accept his irresponsible and like abusive, if we're being honest, behavior. But I when he backed off, I thought, thank God.

Laura 1:09:23

He made so much headway in my eyes in this book because at the start of this book, I was genuinely quite terrified of him. I think I said it earlier, mercifully, his extreme control over Bella, like forbidding her to see Jacob and that kind of stuff, actually seems to only take place over a couple of days. And it's still not excusable, but like those scenes where Bella disappears out of Alice's vision because she's mingling her future with the werewolves, and then when she leaves LaPush, he's like in his car behind her, like with the headlights on, and she's too scared because she's like, I'm gonna be in trouble, he's gonna be so angry, I shouldn't have upset him. Like that that made me feel horrible inside. Like, that is not a nice way to feel around the person you just agreed to marry, and you're about to tether your whole life to that person. He was awful, and then also that coupled with the fact that he was just completely smothering her. Like, I felt so claustrophobic in those scenes. Bella tells Jacob, hey, I am gonna become a vampire, and then he says that horrible shit to her about like you'd be you'd be better off dead. I hope you like I hope you die instead. Every second, every single scene where Bella starts crying in this book, Edward is in her window or somehow climbing in her car, holding her in his arms and being like, It's okay, it's okay. Like, back off my guy. Oh, he was insufferable. But then, like you said, he does have that switch where he's like, This is not working, actually. I'm pushing you further away. I don't want to be that guy, sort of. Yeah. I've realized I'm not listening to you. Oops. My bad. Sorry for dismantling your truck.

Eryn 1:11:04

Oh, like the controlling shit was so fucked. The car thing, Alice literally kidnapping her, it was all so fucked up. I think it's interesting that you say he realizes he wasn't listening to her. I don't think that's what makes him change.

Laura 1:11:20

Do you think it's because he realizes the way he was trying to manipulate her wasn't working, so he switched it up?

Eryn 1:11:27

No, I I think it's that he realized that Jacob was doing all the work he needed to do anyway, so he could just back off. Just screw it up. Yeah. It we're made to think that Edward fixes his behaviour. He doesn't. He just stops doing anything and lets Jacob hang himself. Like Edward does not redeem himself here. He doesn't learn anything. He's just letting Jacob fuck it all up anyway, because it ultimately doesn't matter what Edward does, because Jacob's doing all the bad stuff, and it is again further villainizing Jacob when I don't think he would have behaved in those ways.

Laura 1:12:05

I think that's a really good point. Yeah. I don't think either of these men are good options. No. I totally agree with the comment earlier. We're like pot kettle. Yeah. Like there are no redeeming, redeemable characters in this book. They're all so unpleasant.

Eryn 1:12:20

And I think what is interesting that these are bad people. It's a bad romance, it's a bad example of everything. And I remember even after I'd read it for the first time, and like the movies were big, and people were like, Oh, it's abusive, Edward's bad, it's not good romance. And I remember being like, What are you talking about? There is nothing wrong in these books. And reading it now, I'm like, holy shit, how are we allowed to read these? This should not be YA fiction.

Bridget 1:12:54

When I was Googling some stuff a few days ago, Twilight won an award in 2006 for best children's book.

Laura 1:13:02

And insane. I don't know. I guess it has a lot to do with the echo chamber that you exist in because like I have had discussions about Twilight recently with people that are older than me. And they insist, like, they reread Twilight regularly, and it's like this is a romantic book. This is a romantic book. There's so much passion, there's so much devotion. And like, I guess it depends on like you know, obviously, artists subjective. Like, we I remember when we were starting to read these, and I messaged you guys to say that I had just searched like Edward Cullen abusive, and the top result that came up was like a comment on Reddit that said, People say Edward's abusive all the time, but he has low self-esteem, therefore he can't be abusive. Like you can spin it whichever way you want. Like this is my read on it. I'm not surprised I liked it as a kid, and I don't think it was like as damaging to me as it could have been because I read it at an age where I simply didn't see these problems. Agreed. But if I were a different person, or if I had like a less, you know, like loving, supportive family around me, if I had less role models of what a healthy relationship actually looks like. Maybe this could have like prompted me to go searching for a different kind of path. I don't know.

Eryn 1:14:19

So something that I wanted to talk about just as like a really quick aside is Jacob and Bella have this conversation. And so they talk about how the dynamics of the werewolf pack works. Jacob says he didn't want to be the alpha, even though it's in his bloodline to be the alpha, he didn't want to do it, and that's why Sam is. And she says that she makes up this term that he is the beta werewolf. And I think it's incredible that Stephanie Meyer is like claiming making up what is a pretty common terminology for werewolf dynamics, or like even just wolf dynamics, but just like the Greek numberings and stuff. Yeah, like and she's like, Tee, like I made up this term that second in command wolf is the beta wolf. But I'm positive that's how like wolf dynamics and dog dynamics have been described for a really long time. I think so. And it's but like even if it wasn't, how would she even come up with that on her own? Like Stephanie Meyer is so ridiculous, and Bella is equally as ridiculous for being like, Tee hee, I just made that up just then. It's so quirky and cool of me, and now everybody's gonna call their second in commander beta. Oh, it's very funny. It was so annoying when I read it, and I forgot it even happened, and when when it happened, I was like, get out of here, and naming them the betas, get out.

Laura 1:15:37

I enjoyed that, and I think it it really reminded me of something else that I just hate so much about this book because it's like not only is Bella a Mary Sue who happens to be the best and most special and perfect at everything, it's like everyone is. Edward is, Jacob is. We now find out he's not just a werewolf, he's not first we find out he's not just her second option, he's not just her best friend, he's also a mythical creature and he's the best one. He's the alpha secretly. But it is truly exhausting to read.

Eryn 1:16:12

Like, can no one in this series be fallible? They constantly talk down Bella's intelligence this whole time, but in every book, she has been the only person to connect the dots and be like, I think this is what's happening here, or this is what our strategy should be. Every time. Every time they're like, Whoa, holy shit, Bella! Like, you didn't come to play. It was obvious to literally Yeah, and I'm like, how you are centuries old vampires slash werewolves, you've even got literal army mages in your team, and you're all like, hmm, what do? I don't know what's happened here. And Bella's things are connected, no, yeah, and like Bella's spent two seconds thinking about it and been like, guys, I think it's all about me. And they're like, holy shit! You're right by the drama. It's just crazy. Like, it's funny. Who knew that Bella was such a mastermind?

Bridget 1:17:09

I thought we'd just check back in with the uh Stephanie Meyer approved soundtrack for a clip.

Eryn 1:17:15

So we have Clocks by Coldplay. Another interesting Coldplay choice.

Bridget 1:17:19

Unfortunately, this one doesn't have the names next to it. I really did enjoy New Moon, how it had the B, E, and J um next to them. I thought it was really clever. Well, I mean clever. Interesting. Um number five, Stab My Back by the All-American Regex. I don't know that song, but I mean, she I don't think she does either for most of them. I think she just reads the title and she thinks, yeah, that works.

Eryn 1:17:43

It is giving a bit like my space. These are all the bands I listen to vibes. Very funny. Um can relate.

Bridget 1:17:50

Number seven is Mr. Bright Side by the Killers.

Laura 1:17:53

Is that whiff?

Eryn 1:17:55

How is that applying to this story?

Laura 1:17:57

Destiny is calling me. Maybe it's Bella. Oh my god.

Eryn 1:18:03

That is what's playing during the montage as they get ready to go up the hill for the tenth scene. It might be. Each of them like getting ready in their different bathrooms.

Bridget 1:18:12

Destiny is cool. It's very funny. Number eight is Newborn by Muse, another song that I think she hasn't heard, but just read the title and thought, oh yeah, Newborn. Cool. I mean, I haven't heard it either, but I'm not the one putting it in my list, so.

Eryn 1:18:24

She is a Muse girly though. I I would believe she knows it. Loyal.

Bridget 1:18:28

Number 10 is Vindicated by Dashboard Confessional.

Eryn 1:18:31

Ooh, that's a good song.

Bridget 1:18:32

Number 11, Hysteria, Muse. Number 12, Uninvited, Alanis Morissette. Okay, we're getting angst. We've got Yes Please Muse at number 14, Blackout Muse, number 17, number 18 is It's a Disaster by OK Go. And then number 19, we have one choice plus three alternates. Because she couldn't make up her mind about the last song on the soundtrack.

Eryn 1:18:58

So it's like, babe, this is made up anyway. You could put as many on there and do some more.

Bridget 1:19:03

19 is Falling Away with You by Muse. So the three alternates, two bangers and one I don't know. This is How I Disappear by My Chemical Romance. Banger. Number two, Sleep, My Chemical Romance.

Eryn 1:19:16

Banger.

Bridget 1:19:17

Different brand of banger, but still a banger. Yeah. And then number three, The Well in the Lighthouse by Arcade Fire.

Eryn 1:19:23

God, she loves Muse. Yeah, she's really just putting Muse mixed CD together there.

Laura 1:19:29

I wonder, like, I don't know how Muse feel about Stephanie Meyer, but I think like, not to say they couldn't have been successful on their own, but I imagine they would have a whole host of fans they wouldn't have had otherwise due to the absolute colossal success of this franchise. I don't think we have much else to add, but I think it's good to keep in mind the note we're ending Eclipse on. So we know now that Edward and Bella will be getting married, and we know now that there is an ultimatum. Bella is going to become a vampire, or so we assume, in the next book. Before we start discussing Breaking Dawn, I would really just love to check back in with Bella's motivations behind becoming a vampire. God, I can't wait.

Eryn 1:20:11

I can't wait for this. You are you are ready for this. Like you've got the page ready to go.

Laura 1:20:17

I am ready because I was not just staggered, I was amazed when I read this. It's on page 344. Bella is a little bit freaked out about Jasper's stories about newly created vampires. Now those stories jumped into sharp focus with the news of his and Emmett's wager. I wondered randomly what they were betting. What was a motivating prize when you had everything? I'd always known that I would be different. I hoped that I would be as strong as Edward said I would be. Strong and fast. And most of all, beautiful.

Eryn 1:20:51

Someone Jesus Christ. This is the most shallow, like surface level story. At least she's being honest for a change. You're right. She knows this part of herself quite well.

Laura 1:21:04

The follow-up. Most of all beautiful. Someone who could stand next to Edward and feel like she belonged there.

Eryn 1:21:13

It makes me want to stab myself in the face. Like, how are we three books into this story? They've both almost died. They've both come back together, declared their undying love for each other time and time again, and she's still like, I shouldn't be next to you. I'm not sure. Like, baby girl, get some self-esteem for the love of God.

Bridget 1:21:44

I love that she's not thinking, oh, how many innocent people am I gonna kill? Like, I'm gonna have to deal with my thirst. No, I hope I'm beautiful. God, I hope we're equals. God, I hope I am as hot as Edward is.

Eryn 1:21:57

Like, you know what would be much easier, Bella? Like, just go get some plastic surgery if you don't like the way you look.

Bridget 1:22:03

Like, this is something I have always thought though. If she, like, she knows that she's gonna have a physical transformation, and that's one of the reasons why she can never see Charlie and Renee again. But she is so accident prone. They use it as an excuse all the time whenever something happens. I don't understand why they don't pretend that she got into a fiery car crash, crash, her face melted off or something. She got plastic surgery, and now she looks like this. I don't understand why that was never an option.

Eryn 1:22:30

Poor Zach Efron. Sorry, Zach. Sorry if you're listening more. Like Michael Jackson, like, is you know, yeah. No, I fully agree because and her change is not that severe. Like, isn't it literally just that they get quote unquote prettier? Like, what does that even mean for Bella anyway? But you're absolutely right. Just say I was really fucked up and the Cullens helped pay for plastic surgery for me. Yeah. Done. You know what?

Laura 1:22:58

Like Carlisle's cover should have just been that he was a plastic surgeon. That's a great idea.

Bridget 1:23:02

Well, there was already the rumour that they all had plastic surgery. Why don't they just make it into a double reality? Yeah.

Laura 1:23:08

I guess then he couldn't be doing meaningful work as defined by him.

Eryn 1:23:12

But also, Charlie is never going to notice. Like he is not gonna know.

Bridget 1:23:20

But I just think like a like a car crash or an act some traumatic accident would explain everything. Like it would explain the change in her voice, like damage to her vocal cords. It could explain the like change to her eyes, um, change to her tone. Like she could. Yeah, I don't know. I just really feel like this just solves all the problems. Yeah.

Laura 1:23:41

I think that's good. I never thought about that before.

Eryn 1:23:43

That's incredible.

Bridget 1:23:44

I just I feel like Stephanie Meyer never did either. Like, she didn't think about anything.

Eryn 1:23:47

Well, she didn't think about much. That's so true. Slammed. Alright, colleagues, let's do it. Fave characters, Bridget.

Laura 1:23:54

Edward. Bridget Laura. Uh, I think I'm probably gonna take the crumb of Seth Clearwater that I got in this book because I need it. I need something to hold on to.

Eryn 1:24:07

I think my favourite in this book, out of a very short list of people who could be favourites, is maybe the guy that I didn't remember his name, Riley. He was a bit of a bad bitch. He was out there causing some mischief. I think that's a pretty cool outcome for him.

Laura 1:24:23

I feel like on the topic of Riley, in the movie, he was played by that Australian actor, and I think everybody really thought he was super duper hot, and there was just so much mania around him. I really thought Riley had a way, way bigger role to play in this book than the like one scene where he's like, Oh no!

Eryn 1:24:43

Yeah, I got goofed, yeah. It wasn't until you guys showed me those memes before that I even remembered that I think his name Xavier Samuel is even in this.

Laura 1:24:53

That's a bad boy name.

Eryn 1:24:54

It's a hot boy name for sure.

Laura 1:24:56

Xavier! Xavier.

Eryn 1:25:00

His brother Zaydan. The pinnacle moment, as always. Lit or shit, Laura.

Laura 1:25:08

Oh man, this is really hard because I think I'm gonna say lit, but at the same time, if I wasn't rereading this for the pod, I think I would have checked out of the reread by this book. I was just so sick of them all. Something compelled me. There's something in here that keeps pushing me on. So I'm gonna say it's lit. Because even with the books that have been shit in the past, there hasn't really been that desire to keep going. I'm gonna say lit.

Eryn 1:25:38

I am also where you're at. I don't think I would have gotten this far if I was rereading it by myself. I think I would have stopped at Twilight. I really struggled there. So I would say this is a very low lit for me, Bridget. Lit. You're like a standby, no no. Can't change my life now.

Bridget 1:25:58

We are probably not Team Jacob, probably not Team Edward, but we are most definitely Team Talk Lip. Make sure you subscribe to the show, and if you want to be on the same page as us, follow us at talklip.gethit by Instagram and TikTok.