the hating game by sally thorne

this episode we dive into the immaculately shiny and mirrored world of Sally Thorne's debut novel, The Hating Game. this book won the vote for our Australian fiction month and we are left to answer the question: will the charms of an Australian author be enough to save this book from our better judgement? we talk smurfs, the tiny girl x big man trope, in appropriate office behaviour, weigh in on the Goodreads reviews and Bridget makes an elaborate analogy involving a horse blanket. have we finally found an enemies-to-lovies romance novel to crack open our cold, cynical hearts? or will the hating game end up as just another book we love to hate?

articles mentioned: Meet Sally Thorne
synopsis music by Oleksii Kaplunskyj  

choose our next podcast read by going here and voting in the first week of each month!

make sure you subscribe to hear our groundbreaking thoughts as soon as they are unleashed. if you want to be on the same page as us, follow us at talklit.gethit on Instagram and TikTok.

theme music born from the creative genius of Big Boi B.

join talk lit, get hit podcast for deep dives into the hottest BookTok recommendations, trending contemporary fiction, and literary favourites! each episode features book discussions, spoiler-filled chats, and thoughtful literary analysis of novels everyone is talking about - from viral romance and fantasy to modern classics. whether you’re looking for BookTok book reviews, author interviews, or a virtual book club experience, out podcast is your go-to space for readers who love stories and want to explore them in depth.

talk lit, get hit are reading and recording on Giabal, Jagera, Jarowair & Turrbal lands. we acknowledge the cultural diversity of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and pay respect to Elders past, present and future. always was, always will be.  

Transcript

Laura 0:00

When she says that Danny feels light and insubstantial like chicken bones, I would die if someone said that about me. Hello and welcome to Talk Lit Get Hit, a podcast where we read viral books the internet won't shut up about and rate them lit or shit.

Bridget 0:18

We're your hosts Bridget and Laura, lovers of sad girl fiction and tragic endings, fearers of smut, urban fantasy, and the Who Did This To You trope. Join us as we pick apart all the books the internet loves and embark on a journey to figure out why.

Laura 0:32

This month we are reading a book with a title that is only fitting for the book podcast that loves to hate. For the month of September and Australian fiction, we are picking up a book that was touted as reinvigorating the romantic comedy genre. We are, of course, reading The Hating Game by Sally Thorne. Bridget. Hello, hello. Happy September. Happy September. It feels like August, because it is for us. Tell me about you. How's your month been?

Bridget 0:59

It's been good. I haven't really done much. I was sick again, so I just spent a lot of time sleeping. But we've also been looking for a new car. I can't remember if I've talked about this on the podcast before, but my car is the bane of my existence, but I I still love it. It's actually 30 this month. Oh. So it's turned 30 in August.

Laura 1:17

I was gonna say at this point, you basically have like the Flintstones car. You may as well just be running around in a cardboard box.

Bridget 1:24

It's not an exaggeration. One time I was backing out of my driveway and I used to live on quite a busy road and the exhaust fell off. So that was fun. That is so under consumption core of you. I mean it is, but then also if you like think about the carbon emissions that older cars release, it's like under consumption but climate criminal at the same time. And so Brian also has a car that's five years older than mine. Used to have a tire that was made in West Germany, so pre the fall of the Berlin Wall. So it's time for a new car. But it's exhausting looking for a new car. It's an unfortunate thing to have to do, but everyone's got to have a car that works, I think.

Laura 2:03

You win some, you lose some. How about you?

Bridget 2:05

How was your month?

Laura 2:05

Yeah, it's been good. Probably the highlight was that I went camping. I think I have said on the show that I had had enough camping for the year. Well, I ate my words because this was the actual enough camping moment. Um, it was really, really nice, but I've had my fill. Ended on a high note. We went to Kenilworth and we all felt like our butt cheeks fell off overnight. It was so cold. I don't understand how your butt cheeks can be the coldest part on your body, but I think it has something to do with sitting around a fire on like canvas camp chairs, and the wind is just like getting up and recycling. Yeah. And so that involved a lot of strategizing for the next night's sleep. I'm happy to report I was a lot warmer. Oh, that's good. We went through some highs and lows where we thought we'd found gold. We were in the Mary River. I brought something wonderful to our friends because I was like, what is this? Looked down, saw these little shimmering flecks of stuff. And for the better part of, I don't know, like half an hour at least, we were all picking around in the water like chickens, just like hunched over, scooping up sand and debris, and there were these little flecks of shiny stuff. And we pulled up, you know, like gold diggers map Australia and Fosekin guides and that kind of stuff. And apparently there is gold in the Mary River. But from the little tests we did on it, I think it's probably just mica and fool's gold. Yeah. I found out about that on the weekend, so I was ready to quit my job and podcast full-time. And I don't think you if you find gold on someone's property, you can just take it. But a gal can dream. You don't have to tell them. Yeah, that's true. They're gonna ask. Yeah. I mean they might, I don't know how. But apart from that, I haven't done that much reading this month because I've just sort of been trying to finish the podcast books. I read Educated by Tara Westover. It was really good. I had read I forget what it's called, maybe just Westboro, but the one by one of the daughters from the Westboro Baptist Church. And I had thought that this would be like, oh, you read one, you read them all. And it was obviously like really similar themes, but this was about Tara Westover and her family, like really extreme Mormons. Yeah, it was really, really good. And I also read Darling Girls by Sally Hepworth, which was really confusing for me because this book is by Sally Thorne and I keep getting it wrong, even without that crossover. So I had a pretty tough month, thanks to us.

Bridget 4:22

I didn't read much either. I finally finished Two Paradise by Hanya Yanagahara after we talked about it in our Talklet with Us episode. And look, I was hoping that I would come and have some profound input about this book, but I've really got nothing. My review on Goodreads was that I would have to think about this, and honestly, I don't think I've thought about it once other than when I talked to you about it.

Laura 4:46

So sorry. I kind of feel the same. The more that I think about it, the more that I'm like, yeah, I read that.

Bridget 4:54

I think it's just too long. I think I'm gonna come into my truth as a big book hater. Yes, because it's too long. Join me. And I just there's no reason for it to be that long, okay?

Laura 5:07

Yeah, I feel like the way that the stories were loosely thematically tied together and like the characters had the same names, but there was no connection between them. It's like just write one of those stories.

Bridget 5:18

Yeah, and I I wanted there to be a connection because when the first book ended, I was like, what? Because once again, didn't read the blurb, didn't realise it was more than one story. And then, you know, some people had the same characters, and I even wrote in my notes because I was like, oh, this is like important information. I have to know who these characters are and how they're linked. This is my notes. David Bingham, Rich. Edward Bishop, music teacher, Charles Griffith, old man. And that wasn't helpful, and it wasn't necessary because they weren't really linked, but I thought there was gonna be some grand like family lineage or something, and I just wish there was a little bit more of that. I also listened to How Not to Drown in a Glass of Water by Angie Cruz, and that was absolutely fantastic. The narrator was incredible. I didn't really think that I was gonna like that book because it was about like a middle-aged protagonist, and I was like, I don't know if I want to read about people that have real problems other than just like I can't find a boyfriend, and my job sucks, but no, it was really, really good. And I'm currently waiting to get the loan back from the library to finish Honour by 3D Omrugar. It's about an Indian American woman who has to return to Mumbai after 20 years of not being there and just her dealing with her reconnection to her culture that she's tried to forget and the gender politics of India and all of these things, and it's really good. I'm looking forward to finishing because I think I'm only about 30% of the way through that, but so far, so good. Speaking of books, this is our Australian fiction month. I want to know what is your favourite Australian fiction?

Laura 6:51

Mmm, there's so much to choose from. I feel like we've been so spoiled lately. Like obviously, we had Diana Reed and Genevieve Novak, and they were our choices for the book of the month. But I would throw into there like Sally Hepworth. I've read a few of her books and they've all been so fun and so smart. Leanne Moriarty, obviously a classic. Bodies of Light by Jennifer Down is probably one of the most beautiful books I've ever read, and I'm just hanging out for whatever she writes next. Helen Garner, obviously I never shut up about her. Everything she writes is just so good. Between you and Me by Joanna Horton. That's another one that we've talked about on the show that was so enjoyable. Again, Emily O'Grady, the author of The Yellow House and Feast. I love her and I never shut up about her. Looking over what I read over the last year or so, there's just so many goodies in the mix. There's, you know, dark mode, thirst for salt, search history, heartbake, sunbathing. Such a good list of just delightful Australian fiction. I feel like you've read many of those as well.

Bridget 7:54

Yeah, I have many of the same books on my list. I have like The Diana Reads, Genevieve Novak, Madeline Grey, New Animal by Ella Baxter. But I was also sort of taken back to thinking about childhood books. There's some really great Australian fiction children's authors in Australia, like Mem Fox or Emily Rodder, Andy Griffiths, Maurice Glytzman. Yes. All of these incredible books. And then, of course, my One True Love Snow Pony by Allison Lester is so, so good. I feel like I skipped over Andy Griffiths too quickly. Like, think about all of those books that he wrote. Disgusting. Just stupid.

Laura 8:32

The day my bum went psycho.

Bridget 8:34

Just incredible.

Laura 8:35

I'm just looking at your bookshelves and I can see the Paul Jennings books and I can see a couple of John Marsden books.

Bridget 8:41

Yeah.

Laura 8:42

I think I would love to reread Tomorrow When the War Began. I always think of it when I am camping, so three times a year, I think about it. And I'm always like, oh my god, what if when we get back to civilization, like World War III is broken out? What would I do? I mean, I know I would immediately die or get captured, but I like to think that I could blow up an oil tanker and like destroy a bridge like those kids did.

Bridget 9:04

I think about it every time I hear a plane. Yeah. Every time I go to like show grounds, I think about it. Yeah, you get on your community group. What is that helicopter? Anyone know? Get on Fly Rider. Threat in big red letters. Like they'd get to Toowoma before they ever anyone would uncover them.

Laura 9:22

Priority number one, we need to shut it down. Well, all that to say, Sally Thorne is in very good company, and it's up to us to determine if she truly belongs there. It's funny because I didn't even know she was Australian. Me either. Bridget, before we begin, do you want to give me your initial thoughts, expectations, hopes, and dreams heading into reading The Hating Game by Sally Thorne? Set the scene.

Bridget 9:44

2023. I'm on a plane to Manchester. I was not having a good time. So it was probably like hour three of like a 24-hour travel day. Which was also my birthday. Bad way to spend your birthday on two planes. And also landing in the Manchester airport. Disgraceful. Anyway, so I don't normally watch movies on planes, but I was like, let's watch a movie. And I was blown away by what a good waste of time it is. I was like, why did why have I never done this before? Yeah, that's bizarre. I just hate watching movies, as we know. I picked this movie because I was like, mmm, it looks pretty good. And I really, really, really enjoyed the movie, like so much. And look, it's not getting any Academy Awards. Uh, but it passed like an hour and a half of the first 14-hour flight that I had to do in that day. I think anything is good when you're in that situation. So that was a bit of a godsend. So then when this book won the vote, I was like, shit, yeah. Now I get to read the book of my new favourite movie. I've also been in a reading slump for a few months, as you have. And the one thing that I found has been working is reading trashy romance. One of the books I finished before I started reading this was Not in My Book by Katie Holt, which is an ARC we received, and it was touted as Beach Reed Meets the Hating Game, and I was like, shit, yeah, this is so good. I enjoyed that as well. So it put me in a good mood to read it. It wasn't fantastic, but you know, it was what I needed at the time. How about you? What were your initial thoughts?

Laura 11:10

I am always hopeful that I'm gonna like the cheesy, fluffy rom com. I want so badly to enjoy the ones that we read. So I'm thinking of like the love hypothesis, icebreaker, wildfire. I desperately wanted them to be good, but history suggests otherwise.

Bridget 11:26

That makes sense.

Laura 11:27

I have a story about how I got my book. We did a double vote for our September book and our October book. And because I like scribble in the books and I highlight pages and I fold pages, tape on the edges and stuff, I really don't enjoy buying them new, especially if it turns out to be a book that I don't like, as they so often do. And so I try to find them secondhand or like on marketplace or whatever, and I was so happy because I found the hating game and our October book from the same seller for like five bucks, and it was a bit of a drive from where I live, but I just thought like that's fine, that's you know, ten dollars of my time well spent. And so when I looked up the address on maps, it was just like a dirt patch, it's like absolutely nothing, some sort of wire fences, and I thought, oh, this is how I die, this can't be good. And when I went out, it was like a new development, so I guess it's just older photos. But I did have this distinct feeling when I picked up the books from the person selling them, like oh my god, I wonder if she knows that I have a podcast. Do you think she knows who talk clip get here? And then I had to like quickly humble myself by getting extremely lost and like a little bit scared because it was this new development, and I was like driving around and I kept being like, No, this is definitely the way I came in. I've got it right this time, and then boom, dead end. And the sun was going down, and everything was very kind of like apocalyptic. Yeah, like Edward Scissorhands kind of vibes, gated community. Like, once you're there, you can never leave.

Bridget 13:01

You were sending me voice messages and you were distraught. I was like cooking dinner, and you were like, I don't know, I don't know where I'm going. I'm gonna die tonight, Bridget. I'm too young to die. We've got so much to do. In this episode, we'll be diving deep into the hating game by Sally Thorne. If you haven't read the book yet and want to avoid spoilers, now is the time to pause the podcast and come back once you're finished.

Laura 13:30

In this episode, we'll be discussing themes of fat phobia, abusive behaviours, racial slurs, ableism, and sexual themes. If there's anything else you're sensitive to, we encourage you to do some research before you start reading. Also, Smurfs. It's a big one.

Bridget 13:44

Lucy Hutton and Joshua Templeman hate each other, not dislike, not begrudgingly tolerate, hate. And they have no problem displaying their feelings through a series of ritualistic, passive-aggressive manoeuvres as they sit across from each other, executive assistants to co-CEOs of a publishing company.

Laura 14:01

Lucy can't understand Joshua's joyless, uptight, meticulous approach to his job. Joshua is clearly baffled by Lucy's overly bright clothes, quirkiness, and Pollyanna attitude.

Bridget 14:11

Now, up for the same promotion, their battle of wills has come to a head. Lucy refuses to back down when their latest game could cost her her dream job.

Laura 14:19

But the tension between Lucy and Joshua has also reached its boiling point, and Lucy is discovering that maybe she doesn't hate Joshua, and maybe he doesn't hate her either. Or maybe this is just another game.

Bridget 14:30

Now that we have all that out of the way, Laura, post-read feelings. How did you like the hating game by Sally Thorne?

Laura 14:40

I feel like everyone is gonna hate me so much because I'm so confused because I feel like I loved it so much.

Bridget 14:47

Oh my god, me too!

Laura 14:53

I was actually like not even just I enjoyed it, but I was actually like properly obsessed with it.

Bridget 14:59

Why would you go first?

Laura 15:00

Because I thought you were gonna hate it, and I wanted to gauge my On a level I was upset that you were making me go first because I had the same plan.

Bridget 15:10

That's so funny.

Laura 15:12

Oh man. It was like to the point where I had been telling Brown about it for the first like 20 pages, where I was like, Yeah, and she's like the smallest girl ever, and ugh, she just like hates him. And then, like, maybe less than 40 pages in when I was now fully hooked, and he tried to be like, How is your smallest girl in the world book going? I was like, it's not shut up, it's different to that. You don't get it.

Bridget 15:34

Yeah, look. What I was gonna say is I'm embarrassed to say how much I love this book. I think that I was having such a good time that I put my blinkers on and I was like, nope, I'm ignoring that. I'm ignoring this, I'm ignoring this. I was so sure that you would be like, This book sucks, and I was gonna be like, actually, I really liked it. So that's good.

Laura 15:58

I just feel like such a hypocrite because I feel like, yeah, exactly what you said, I had my blinkers on because when I finished it and I was, you know, typing out my notes and then like looking at the reviews and just sort of like weighing in on the one-star reviews and the five-star reviews. I was like, Yeah, that's a good point. Yep, that's a good point, and it's something I would call out in any of the other books that we've read, but for whatever reason, this book, I'm like, oh, it's actually it's just a it's just a fun, light-hearted book, guys. Like, I know leave it alone.

Bridget 16:26

I feel so defensive of it, it's so stupid. Are we blinded by her Australian heritage? I actually was wondering if that was the case, and when I read that she was Australian, I was blown away by that. I did not realize that was the case. Also, it's so funny to me that she lives in Canberra because I feel like no one lives in Canberra unless they're like made to as a child or they're a politician. It's like I don't know anyone who like chose to move to Canberra.

Laura 16:54

Like, I actually have several friends that have chosen to they've all moved back now, actually. So maybe you're onto something.

Bridget 17:00

But I did go to Canberra on an excursion. I had a great time. It's nice. I'm not here for the Canberra slander. I just don't really know that many people who are like, I'm gonna go live in Canberra as an adult. That's all.

Laura 17:11

I didn't write many notes for this book, but just a brief sample of the notes that I took the time out of my day to jot down as I was reading. Page six, I am eating this up. Random note. I love books set in the publishing slash media industry. Is this maybe why I like it so much? Next note, why do I love this? Next note, oh my god, I think I love this. There's a few more in between, but then the next one says, Why do I feel like I like this so much? Next note. Oh my god, I think I had just have to admit that I love this and stop writing it down.

Bridget 17:47

I am ashamed of myself, but I don't care. I honestly don't care.

Laura 17:52

I was feeling stressed when I was reading it. Because I'm like, everyone's gonna call me out. They're gonna be like, how can you not enjoy these books but love this one so much? It's not the same though. So should we talk a little bit about Sally Thorne before we get started? Yes, this book was published eight years ago yesterday, but I'd never really heard of her. I'd never really heard of her either. And she has, I think, three books and a couple of short works of fiction. I think I'd never even really heard of the movie. Apart from you talking about it, I don't think this really would have crossed my radar. I kind of put it into that same category of like miscellaneous rom-com, like the unhoneymoon is or the flat share, and just that like they're all sort of blurring into one, and I'd never really paid attention to who wrote it or where they were from.

Bridget 18:36

Yeah, the cover wasn't really familiar to me. And then I think when I watched the movie on the plane, I didn't even make the connection between this book and that movie. I just saw Lucy Hale and I think she's so pretty, and I was like, oh, I'm gonna watch that one. Hell yeah. Um, I feel like I haven't watched many romantic comedies or even have heard about many romantic comedies that are made, you know, post 2010, I would say. Like obviously we we have those ones like Hadaloose a guy in 10 Days, Suddenly 30, or you know, like Hillary Duff movies or something like that, maybe more teen movies. And it's just not really on my radar. And also in 2016 I wasn't really reading as much as I am now. Or if I was, I would have just been reading books that I had at home and not participating in Bookstagram or anything like that.

Laura 19:20

I think in 2016 I never would have read something like this because I would have still been so deeply in denial about the fact that reading something light and fluffy is worth my time.

Bridget 19:31

Actually, yeah, 100% agree. Yeah, I would have been reading like books on Emma Watson's book club.

Laura 19:38

So this was her debut novel. Not about effort, I have to say. And something that I found really interesting and something that I think really influenced my read of this book was that the hating game was initially written as a gift for her friend. I've read this in a couple of places, but at the moment I'm quoting from an interview on Cassie Hammer's blog. She says, I understand the manuscript had an interesting genesis for the friend asking you for a short story as a gift, which also involved the writing prompt Nemesis. And Sally Thorne says, The hating game was a present for a friend's birthday. I said I needed a prompt word to inspire me. I was probably just hoping to write a nice long drabble or flash fiction piece. The prompt word she gave me was nemesis, and for some reason just lit my brain up like a lightning strike. I could see a man and a woman in a silent office opposite each other, staring, a sense of tension and animosity between them. I started writing in my spare moments and couldn't stop until the end. Around six weeks later, maybe even less. It was my first manuscript and I got all the way to the end. Everything else I ever started just fizzled out and are in the elephant graveyard on my computer marked archive. What a great gift. Fantastic. Well, would you like to know a couple other things about Sally Thorne?

Bridget 20:50

Yes. Sound defensive.

Laura 20:53

Yes, I would. So one of us looked at her website. I looked at her Instagram. That's good because otherwise we never would have had that fun little nugget about our perfectly timed recording day. Yeah, and I also know how old she is. She's 41. So hey. Okay. Well, that makes a few other things slot into place. One of them is that uh in an interview on Read More Co. She said she tried writing Twilight fanfiction in 2008.

Bridget 21:19

Oh, right after our own heart. Also a great time in the Twilight community. Yes. Before the mums got involved with the movie.

Laura 21:28

She truly was in the golden era. Wow, she's not a local. She's a true fan. Another thing that I thought might pique your interest is that she says she draws her romantic inspiration from Taylor Swift's songs. I feel like we've had some possibly less enjoyable books drawing inspiration from the works of Taylor Swift. So I imagine it's a nice kind of relief for you to have something that you're actually enjoying. Yeah, did she say which one? No.

Bridget 21:54

Oh, just a generic that's okay. I can fill in the gaps myself.

Laura 21:57

There's one more reason that I was really hoping you would enjoy this. This book, and it's because I believe there's a sort of kinship that exists between you and Sally Thorne, whether you know it or not. Oh god. And it it's because on her website it says she owns every single book in the original The Babysitters Club series.

Bridget 22:15

Oh, that's my dream. Yes. She's a woman after your own heart. Oh, I love her.

Laura 22:22

There's only one more thing I really have to say about Sally Thorne, and it's a bit bleak. But in her author's bio, it's on her website and it's at the start of this book. It says, She lives in Canberra, Australia, with her husband in a house filled with vintage toys, too many cushions, a haunted doll house, and the world's sweetest pug. Oh no. And as soon as I read that, I was like, Well, what are you gonna do when the dog dies? Why was that a concern? I'm just like, are you gonna update the bio? Poor little pug. I know. It made me feel sad in the way that like yoga with Adrian. Oh, Benji. Every time she posts a photo of Benji. And I know this is not specific to just me, but my heart sinks.

Bridget 23:03

Well, there was another dog a long time ago with yoga with Adrian. Oh I remember when she got Benji as a puppy because she did have another blue healer.

Laura 23:11

And every photo of him is so handsome and cute, and I'm like, this is the tribute photo. And sometimes she'll post like, you know, big changes around here. We're switching up the lineup, but I always think it's gonna be like big changes, Benji's dead. Touch wood. I mean, yeah, like I don't wish ill on Sally Thorne's dog. I do not wish ill on yoga with Adrian's delightful dog Benji. It just crossed my mind, and I have to be real about that. A common criticism that we make of the enemies to lovers books that we read on the podcast, like the love hypothesis, like icebreaker, is that they're not really enemies to lovers in a way that is satisfying to us. And I saw this criticism popping up again and again in the one-star reviews of The Hating Game. I'm interested to hear what you think about that.

Bridget 24:01

I think it was a good example of enemies to lovers because they were so horrible to each other. It was getting a bit old, like we're the bookish librarians and they're the spreadsheet type. Like that was a bit boring. But it set it up and it felt like there was history there. It wasn't just like a a day of like some sort of misunderstanding. Even though he was allegedly in love with her from the very first time that he saw her, it still wasn't like she hates him, he doesn't hate her, he's in love with her. He was still like annoyed by her to the max, annoyed the shit out of each other. And I think being in that weird space, in that weird mirrored room with someone who frustrates you, I found it quite realistic, even though I don't work in an office and don't have that relationship. But this is how I imagine offices are. So in like in my head, I was like, checks out. I agree.

Laura 24:53

I think I was really satisfied with this. And I've been trying to untangle why it worked for me. And I think a part of it is that I feel like we didn't really get the denial. They were like, oh, he's so annoying and I hate him. But also, yeah, he's excellent at his job. Yeah, I see his merit, and yes, I want to have sex with him. I feel like that was really it was all on the table, like from the very first line. And something that was great about it was that I thought the characters were never confused by that. That's something that shits me endlessly in the books we read, where they're like, ugh, what are these feelings? Why do I feel this way? I feel like throughout this book, Lucy was like, Yeah, he's hot.

Bridget 25:34

Of course I want to sleep with him, but I hate him and I don't want to give him the satisfaction. Two things can be true at the same time. And I think the only time where she was like freaked out by that was when she was like, Oh wait, actually I love him. Which would take you by surprise. Especially like this is like two weeks that we're talking about, maybe. Like going from that. But I feel like if you have that level of passion in that hatred, and then you actually like see, oh, actually he's not a monster, that would be quite easy to flip.

Laura 26:01

But like the opening line kind of like sets you up for what happens anyway. It says, I have a theory. Hating someone feels disturbingly similar to being in love with them. Hmm. Love and hate are visceral, your stomach twists at the thought of that person, the heart on your chest beats heavy and bright, nearly visible through your flesh and clothes. Your appetite and sleep are shedded, every interaction spikes your blood with a dangerous kind of adrenaline, and you're on the brink of fight or flight. Your body is barely under your control, you're consumed, and it scares you.

Bridget 26:27

I think I'm a hypocrite with this when we're thinking about like love hypothesis, wildfire, all of that stuff. Because it's not pretending to be something it's not. Icebreaker and the love hypothesis, they're pretending to be this profound work of art where like they have these grand discoveries in their heads, and they're like, Well, I'm acting like this because my dad treated me like this, and you're acting like this because of this, and they're too earnest. The writing's not good enough, the plot's not good enough to back up that earnest vibe to it. But this book is not trying to do that. There are still things about the father and whatever, but also it's not taking itself seriously at all. She knows how ridiculous it is that they spend their days fighting at work like this. It's just not too serious, and I think that might be the Australian author having a role in that because it's never that serious for Australian people. Like, it's really not. And even though this book isn't really set in Australia, it just has a different feel to it than these American authors or these British authors who were cosplaying as American authors.

Laura 27:26

Yeah, I was trying to disentangle that as well because I found that a lot of the banter and the back and forth really worked for me, and I genuinely thought it was very funny in parts. But again, when I looked through the reviews, so many of them were like, it's not funny, the banter is cringe, like I don't get why people like this. And that's something I see pretty often. I guess it's not strictly an Australian example, but like taiko YTT movies like um Next Gold Wins, Eagle vs Shark, What We Do in the Shadows. So often I see Americans on TikTok or like on Letterboxd and stuff being like, the jokes aren't funny, like nobody talks like that, like blah blah blah. Oh my god, I don't get the humor, y'all are crazy. And I mean, different strokes for different folks, but this really worked for me in a way that the quote unquote comedy in other books we've read doesn't land.

Bridget 28:19

I wouldn't say that I was cackling with laughter, but there were often things where I was like, huh, that's funny. Yeah. And it was stupid as well. It's not a cool book, but it's funny.

Laura 28:30

I was trying to figure out where it lands on a spectrum, and it's hard to say because I'm not very well versed with romantic comedy. It's so far beyond something like Allie Hazelwood or Hannah Grace for me. And I don't think it's quite as serious as something like Emily Henry. I think it was way more like tongue-in-cheek, self-aware, like kind of bratty, funny, silly. Yeah, I'm not even really sure how to categorize it because I do feel like the author was really self-aware. The fact that the book was written as a gift for her friend comes into play because I was reading it as this like, ha ha, romance books are so stupid. Let's write one that has like everything we actually enjoy so deeply crammed into one. Let's make it like cringy, self-aware, like ridiculous. And it'll never have to see the light of day. And then she put it all in, and her friend was like, this is actually kind of good. And then here we are.

Bridget 29:24

I think it had all those things in it, those tropes and um, you know, small girl, big guy, blah blah blah. But at the same time, it wasn't poor me, poor me. It was like, I'm sick of people talking about my height. That I could get rid of all that stuff. I don't care about that. Don't care that he's massive, don't care that she's short. I think normally in these books we would have a female main character who, you know, doesn't wear makeup, doesn't think about the clothes that she wears, is just effortlessly beautiful and you know is always stunning and whatever. But Lucy was very concerned with how she looked. She knew that she would make an effort wearing this, and she was always, you know, doing her lipstick, and she was worried about how she looked when she was sick. And I feel like that felt more realistic because, in I wanna say, the love hypothesis, when she goes to the conference, she takes the dress that's too small. It's because she didn't think about it, and she's like, oh my god, now I have to wear the short, sexy dress, and I'm gonna put eyeliner on and it's gonna last all night, and you know, all this shit. But Lucy is thinking about that. Like she's not pretending as if those things don't matter. Because to many people they do. It matters how they look and how they look affects how they're feeling, their confidence. She didn't annoy me with that because it felt realistic.

Laura 30:38

I feel like the characters are really upfront about who they were and their motivations. Like, if I wasn't so blinded by how much I love this book, I uh when I take a step back, I can say, like, yeah, they're both like pretty narcissistic in a sense, like obsessed with how they look, obsessed with how they're perceived, like career-driven, like to a fault. Um, like neither of them have any friends, neither of them really like spend time with their families. All they do all day is come into work on this like ego trip to like have extreme sexual tension with one another, which is pretty insane behavior. Objectively, that makes them pretty like miserable, boring characters. Like they are spending a fair amount of time being like, he's so hot and I'm so hot, like we're so hot together. But I love that. Don't shut up about it. And it was so nice to read a book, like you said, where the female protagonist was like, Yeah, I'm hot. I wear makeup, I dress up to make myself look nice, I want to be perceived a certain way. And then when she writes about other female characters like eyeing off Josh or like hitting on him, she's like, Yeah, okay, that happened. And it bothers her from time to time, but we're not with those same woeful feelings of like, I'm not hard enough for him, I don't deserve him. Like, oh, I'm so ugly, I'm just a little crumb.

Bridget 31:56

It's not a Bella or an Anastasia Steel moment where it's like, Why would you be with me when there's all these women? Like, she's like, which is just this is just like disgusting me that I'm about to say this. But she's like, he's mine, like she, you know, which is so gross, but she's not putting herself down because she feels like she's in competition with other women. She just wants him.

Laura 32:16

I think she's she's uh using her divine femininity in a goddess. Anastasia would be so proud. I'm annoying myself because I don't have any examples, but one thing as well that I found myself admiring about this book was Sally Hepworth's ability to describe an outfit with enough vagueness that you're like, yeah, that sounds good. When she was talking about her boss, her French boss, with her like pink like short nails and her bob and her like silks and satins, she talked about clothes in this vague, like suggestive kind of way where she would say, like, oh, she's wearing an expensive silk number that clearly costs like half of my paycheck. And then when the reader is digesting that, it can be anything you want it to be. And so I just made all of the fashion like exactly to my taste. I think her it just said something like, Oh, I'm wearing a little black dress and like spiky red heels.

Bridget 33:13

And I was like, Cool, I have my version of like how that should look, and she looks amazing. Yeah, the clothes that she wears in that movie are incredible. Like she has these checkered pants, she's got a dress with like a little bow here, like bows, it's absolutely beautiful. And I watched the movie again two days ago, and I was just obsessed with her clothes. The whole thing is really like, even though it's was made in 2020 or released in 2021, I think, it's a millennial fever dream. Like that peak, you know, mid-2016, those clothes, like the apartments with the exposed brick walls and like the hipster baristas with like the top knot and like bookshelves and those comfy couches, like it's a period piece, it's incredible. And her clothes are just so beautiful. And even like hearing about his shirts didn't bother me. No, and that would normally really bother me.

Laura 34:10

Shame. I don't understand, Bridget. I really don't understand. There are so many things as I wrote it down thinking like I love it.

Bridget 34:18

I was like, so ridiculous.

Laura 34:20

Even the fact that like he painted the wall the same colour as her eyes, like that's so stupid that I was like, oh you just reminded me of another example of my hypocrisy, because like the timeline, as you said, it's so condensed, like it just takes place over a couple of weeks. And again, I was like, Yep, that makes sense. So and I guess it's okay for a couple of reasons. Like they have worked together for a long time, they see each other every single day, and they are, although not friends, like scrutinizing each other's behaviours and like really aware of each other's habits and tendencies. And then I think it's like they have this time where they become like open and let down their guard and learn about each other. Those kind of open conversations make things click into place, and it's like, oh, I've known you all along. But another thing that I think helped it was that it's so insular to them. I was really freaked out when they kept talking about Lucy's friend that she lost in the merger, that we would have to go through a whole like rekindling of the friendship, and she actually has a friend all along. I don't want that. So happy that she was like, nah, f that friend, like we'll never find out anything, we'll never get closure. Yeah.

Bridget 35:32

This is an absolutely ridiculous thing I'm about to say as well. Please. But I often think about this when I think about celebrity relationships, mainly Taylor Swift, and you know, she was with Jake Gillard Hall for around about three months, and like that relationship destroyed her. And that has always made so much sense to me because one, they're rich and they can do whatever they want, and so if they want to take a a week or two weeks to go on a holiday every like second week of their relationship, like they can just go for these extended periods of time, they don't have to go to work unless they've got a movie or whatever. That relationship forms because they're with each other 24-7, and I feel like it would be so easy as a celebrity, as a rich person, to have an intense relationship in a short amount of time if you have access to money and time. And these people have access not really to money, but they have access to time. They're with each other all day. Plus, when they sort of start their relationship going, they're with each other every night. For some reason in my head, that made sense. I was like, Yeah, this checks out. And it was also a bit like breaking in a horse. I was thinking, you know, like you spend a little bit of time with the horse, and you know, you put you put like a blanket on their back and they get used to having I love when you're going with this.

Laura 36:53

I can't wait to hear more. You put a blanket on their back.

Bridget 37:03

So you put a blanket on his back, you know, the horse is getting used to the weight of the saddle. Then you put the saddle on really loose, and then you tighten, you know, tighten it gradually, blah blah blah. But this is how they did their relationship. Like they sat on the couch together watching ER, and she was just staring at him watching ER. It was that was her blanket. She was getting used to like not being scared of him. I feel like their like physical relationship also moved slowly. It took them like two weeks to sleep together, maybe. Yeah. It it just made sense to me. It's crazy, but it made sense.

Laura 37:38

So I ate up every second of it. And I'm awful for that. I know it. I know it. Because like one of the main criticisms I've seen of this book is that Joshua, like their first kiss, he like kisses her without her consent. Yes. Actually, I can't deny the fact that he doesn't ask to kiss her or give any indication that he's going to kiss her when he kisses her in the elevator. But I also just have to own the fact that I simply am ignoring that. I don't care.

Bridget 38:08

Yeah, I'm a bad person because that's how I want a scene like that to be. They're both extremely inappropriate.

Laura 38:14

They're both extremely inappropriate. One of my notes was like, God, can you imagine having conversations like this at work? They weren't emailing them though. That is yeah, that's also true that yeah.

Bridget 38:24

One of the only notes I wrote that wasn't like, oh my god, was as if either of them would be offered that job as second in command of the whole place with their behaviour. Everyone's aware, as if either of them would get that job.

Laura 38:38

I think we jump into the sexual tension straight away. Yes. And we don't have to deal with any of the like oh why do I find him kind of what's this feeling? Sexy? I loved so much that she was straight up about the fact that she found him attractive, she found him capable, she wanted to mess with him and she was gonna use her like sexual leverage. I think their way of speaking to each other was like so sexually charged right from the get-go that it felt like it was even more drawn out to me than what we were seeing on the page because it felt like, God, they've been like this for years. I'm just so confused by myself because like there were so many lines, particularly lines uttered by Joshua, where I was like, I don't know why, but it's working on me. Like the one where she has the like sex dream about him where he was like, if I were your boss, I'd work you so fucking hard, so fucking hard. And I was like, Why do I like it?

Bridget 39:35

I'm scared.

Laura 39:37

I don't want don't make me this person. And then like how she just straight up goes and tells him, like, I think I found it really refreshing, like, they're not ashamed of being attracted to one another. Like so early on, they're like, Yeah, we should just have sex and see what happens.

Bridget 39:53

Yeah. I loved it. You know, she's not practically a virgin or she's not like inexperienced, like, even though she hasn't had that many boyfriends, he doesn't seem to have had many girlfriends. I don't know, it's not really about anybody but them.

Laura 40:04

I read some of this as a book and I listened to some of it as an audiobook, and I enjoyed both of them equally. I think the audiobook was actually really great. She just had like a really flippant way of delivering the lines, like it was nothing was that charged, and I think that was something that kind of helped me move past some of the criticisms that people were having, particularly like of Josh's character, you know, like in the scene where he shoots Danny because he's like talking a what's her face, Lucy. I thought it was funny too, or like when he hangs up on Danny and is like, stop calling her. I think I was like vibing with whatever Sally Thorne was putting down, but I see how if you weren't kind of into it, you could be reading those as like never call her again. Yeah, and like she's my girl type stuff, but I was reading it as like faux protectiveness, like he was doing it for a bit almost.

Bridget 40:55

I was reading it as like this guy is so annoying, Danny was so annoying. What are you wearing? I was right there with Josh, like shut up. How inappropriate! Like you you were the one who said or like started to say, let's not go out anymore. He was just in it for the power play between him and Josh, I think, as well. Like, I don't know, I didn't find Josh's behaviour that bad, really.

Laura 41:18

Me either. And I think there are enough times where he s sort of flipped traditional tropes around a little bit to be like a green flag in my books.

Bridget 41:26

I also think it is refreshing to see or to read a male character who is like sometimes a little bit like calm down, mate, but he reflects on it and he comes back and he's like, No, I'm sorry. That it's growth and it's like learning to be in a relationship together.

Laura 41:45

I really can't figure it out, but even their dialogue stuff that seems unrealistic or scary, like I can't imagine myself saying it, but I just loved it so much. Like there's this quote where Lucy says to him, All I want to do is kiss you until I fall asleep. I want to slide in between your sheets and find out what goes on inside your head and underneath your clothes. I want to make a fool of myself over you. I think she says that reasonably early on in their relationship, and that's I think at a point where they haven't had sex, and she's like, Come on, please, let's just do it the one time. Like, let's just get it over with. Like, this is what I want. And he's saying no, like we have to take our time. But I I just really enjoyed how upfront they were about their desire for one another, and just kind of like the practicality of it.

Bridget 42:32

I think what sealed the deal for me was when she realized that he was shy.

Laura 42:38

Yes.

Bridget 42:39

Like he's you know, he's saying, Oh, no, um, no one can kiss me like you, and all this stuff. But I think it's not because he's like a good kisser or like he's had so much experience like sleeping with women, I think it's because of their chemistry, that's why it's so good between them. And it's not like a bragging about abilities, it's a we fit together so well. I think he says that like we fit in so many ways, they just suit each other, and so I think that's always gonna be like fireworks.

Laura 43:07

Agreed. The shy thing really did it for me too. And then when she has that big speech around the table with his family, and she says he's shy, and then the brother kind of has a moment of oh, like everything's clicking into place. I was like, Yeah, you get him, Lucy. Yeah, yeah, it's been real. I did write that down as like cringe. I know, but it's also kind of funny. I really like Joshua, and please report that I really liked Lucy as well.

Bridget 43:40

Same, same. I was worried with the Smurfs and like just how she was like the other guys in the team, Bexley's, they want to cut numbers and they wanna see KPIs and all and we just wanted to sit around drinking jasmine tea, but again, I read that with comedy behind it.

Laura 43:58

Me too. I think she was historically. And I think like a perfect example of this comedy that like sums up the vibe is when Josh says on page 43, when I'm your boss, I'm implementing a corporate support uniform policy. No more of your weird little retro costumes. I've already got it circled in the corporate wear catalogue. A grey shift dress. He pauses for effect. Polyester. It's supposed to be knee length, so it should reach your ankles. I'm insanely sensitive about my height, and I absolutely hate synthetic fibers. I just thought it was so funny. Yeah. Like when they do the team building exercise. The paintball, and when it's over, she's like, Oh my god, people are hugging, we're bonding. Like golden beams of light are shining down. Like the office is cute. Hooray!

Bridget 44:51

I think we've sort of touched on this a little bit already about the use of all of the classic tropes and romantic words. One that we haven't talked about is I think possibly my favourite trope. And it's the I'm so sick, please take care of me trope. And it's so cool. I can't think of any other books or movies where this has happened off the top of my head. But oh my god, is there anything more like flirty? I just think there's nothing better than like that situation of somebody being delirious, at their worst, looking their worst, in and out of sleep, saying things they shouldn't, and the other person just with like a like a knowing smile, like, yeah, it's okay, go to sleep. And like having the opportunity to snoop while they're asleep. Oh, I would kill for that. Like that would be amazing. Imagine just having like free reign to someone's apartment that you've been obsessed with for like the past year. You could like look at all their little nerdy smurf toys and shit, and like, oh, just actually incredible. And that's I can't I can't stop thinking about that in particular. Like, what a way to start that relationship like that.

Laura 45:57

Oh, it was so good. And I think it's like it's always such a twinge of like, oh, hang on. When he's like, you're sick or you're sweating, you've got a fever, and you're like, why does he even care? What the hell? Is he actually really aware of her presence and actually has her best interest at heart? And then Does he actually love her? What? He's not phased by her vomit and her Alice Cooper eye makeup. I love it too. And that's so true. I feel like it's a trope that's burned into my subconscious A as like something like a standout, but I can't think of any examples. No, neither. The only thing I can think of is like sleep talking and twilight, but that's not the same thing. No, it's not. And it's like a little bit of you know, it's being nursed, it's being taken care of, acts of service. Yes, yeah. That is an excellent trope. So if you're a fan of that, tick. You will enjoy this book.

Bridget 46:52

One bed against all effort to make it to, like a surprise away from home situation, and a one bed fake dating, but not really fake dating. Yeah. That is what like there's just so many thrown in there. Yes. And it's incredible.

Laura 47:10

One that I loved, which was really, really like hitting the heart of my 90s rom-com watching career, not that illustrious as we've established, but you know, a girl can want what she wants. It was when Josh says to her, go on the date with Danny and kiss him. And if the kiss with him is better than the kiss you had with me, then by all means go ahead. But if kissing me is better, then you have to come to me and you have to say to my face that it was better.

Bridget 47:40

Yeah.

Laura 47:41

Incredible. Oh. The go right ahead trope. Oh my god. Off you go then. Yeah. Smug. I loved it.

Bridget 47:49

I was like very morally grey, but I'm here for it. I was thinking, like, oh, she is using Danny, but also it was like two dates.

Laura 47:58

And also she never had to see him again. It's not like they all work together. And Danny also pulled away from that second kiss. Yes.

Bridget 48:04

I think it would be different. Like if it was the postman she went on a date with, who like she thought was pathetic and pathetically flirting, but she actually did think Danny was cute. It wasn't like total using. I'm just trying to like make excuses for her because I love her.

Laura 48:17

But well, it's also like people go on dates all the time. Yes. Like people go on dates and don't have chemistry and it doesn't work out all the time. They tried it, it didn't work. And it's not like she was dating them concurrently. I flip and hate those books where it's like, who do I choose? It was never really a question, which was so nice. Another trope I really enjoyed was the conversation that Joshua's mum has with Lucy at the wedding, which is essentially, I've never seen him like this with anyone but you. He needs you. Oh, I love that trope so much. Yes. And that was one of the things where I was like, oh my god, because I actually teared up a little bit in that one. And I teared up a little bit in her speech with the dad, but particularly the mum, I was like, it's got me. It's got me clue. I don't know if it's a trope per se, but another thing, like a theme of these like 90s rom-coms that we know and love is just like the inappropriate office relationships and like the overstepping boss. I really liked the character of her boss, and I thought it was so nice that she had such a nurturing boss. Like the conversation where she said, I'm wondering, like, if you never went for this promotion, would these ideas have stayed locked up inside you forever? I'm actually getting a bit emotional. It was so nice, it was so nurturing and so caring. And even though we didn't get much of her, I really enjoyed her involvement in the story and the way that she was in Lucy's corner and she like believed in her capabilities the same way that Lucy did. And I like that we didn't have to sit through Lucy proving herself to anyone but Joshua.

Bridget 49:50

And also we didn't have to sit through her proving it to herself. You know, how many times have we have we read a book where someone's like, yeah, that's my job. I don't really know if I'm good at it though. Like she knew she was good at it. Everyone knew she was good at it.

Laura 50:02

And also the idea did sound good. I was like, Yeah, that's a great idea, Lucy. Because so often there's really crummy ideas that you have to get behind and act like it's a stroke of genius. But I did like when the boss said the line about, I don't think Joshua can imagine you with anyone but him. I was like, inappropriate, but I'll allow it. I feel like in the spirit of fairness, we could discuss some of the criticisms of this book because as we've said, they are absolutely things that we would point out in any other book. Yeah. And they're valid. They are very valid, regretfully and truthfully. So, in no particular order, some of the criticisms that I've picked up from reading the one star reviews are that this book is fat phobic, that it enforces pointless gender binaries or stereotypes, uh, it uses a couple of slurs and some ableist language. Uh, there's a real lack of diversity, there's some pretty negative representations of sex workers, it's potentially romanticising abusive behaviour, and at its heart, it's just two white people waxing on about how hot and capable they are.

Bridget 51:13

Yeah.

Laura 51:14

It's true.

Bridget 51:16

When I watched the movie the other night, I thought this is a weird way to write a book, I think. I was wrestling with the criticism of romanticising abusive behaviour because I think the verbal abuse in the office and the paintballing bruises were a way for the author to write a safe, dangerous relationship. The focus on the bruises for the rest of the book after the paintballing made it really weird. It wasn't, but it was like, oh, kill whoever did this to you, like that sort of thing. Like, I'm so protective of you. Look at all these bruises on your stomach. I can't believe how many you have. Also, like her crying when Denny called her beautiful, like, it was a soft, abusive relationship, and I got that vibe in the movie, and I was like, Yeah, that is true.

Laura 52:02

Which is disappointing because it sort of put a bit of a shadow on it. That is true, and also Josh was the one that set up Paintball, so there is like a level of sadism involved where he's like, I want to put you in that situation.

Bridget 52:15

I want to put you in that situation to protect you, but like the aim of the game, like that's not possible in that game.

Laura 52:20

No. I did have the same reaction to that scene where she breaks down after Danny calls her beautiful, and she's like, You just beat me down every day, you make me feel worthless. I do think this book could have achieved the same outcomes without him making her feel so small. I think he could have simply been competent and irritating, but not cold and dismissive.

Bridget 52:43

And it was both sides all too personal a lot of the time.

Laura 52:46

Like a bit over the top. The way that Lucy was speaking about sex workers as well did stand out to me a little bit. And it's not an excuse, but keeping in mind this book was published in 2016. I think we've come such a far way from then. I think this is definitely a conversation that was happening at that point in time anyway. It was like a little bit jarring and disappointing to read. But just things like, oh, I'm wearing fishnet stockings and red lipstick, everyone probably thinks I'm a hooker. Like there are other people in the world that wear those things, Lucy. Feels cheap because she feels like a dial a date or something like that at the wedding, which is just, you know, such like a negative devaluing way of looking at people that do that for that line of work. I think it's like a bit of an outdated attitude. So I definitely could have done without those sentiments, but at the same time, like I really resonated with her feelings of being made to feel stupid and being made to feel embarrassed and small.

Bridget 53:40

Yes. The lack of diversity as well was something that I noticed when I watched the movie the other night.

Laura 53:45

And there's not really any reason to not have more people of colour, particularly in the movie, because nobody's even described in the book.

Bridget 53:53

And no one even says anything.

Laura 53:54

Yeah. Like there's just the two characters. I do think that's a really valid criticism, but at the same time, we basically only see these two characters. So, I mean, one of them could have been a person of colour, but I think the risk you run is doing a shit job of it as a white author, or doing something tokenistic or forced and having the opposite effect of what you're hoping to achieve. So I think it's a r an especially valid criticism for the movie. But outside of Josh and Lucy, all of the characters on the whole are quite unflatteringly portrayed.

Bridget 54:26

And we don't know anything about any of them anyway. They don't go deep enough into any of the characters to give them any sort of value. One thing that really frustrated me was how dense Lucy was when it came to what she said was objectifying Josh. I think it was pretty clear from the very start that he didn't like comments about how his body looked and how hot he was. I think he told her that directly and indirectly many times, but it took her a long, long time to catch up on that. I also thought it was funny the comments that she would make about her ex-boyfriends, about how her ex-boyfriends could fit into her tiny little jeans and how she's always been scared of these big tall men. I just kept coming back to is this necessary? Do we have to know about how tiny and frail and weak your ex-boyfriends were? Like, is this really relevant to the book? What has this got to do with anything?

Laura 55:21

And it really is hard to determine because I think enjoying that or not enjoying that depends on how seriously you're reading this. Because I think it was mentioned more than it needed to be mentioned. But as a throwaway line, like the tiny little jeans was a hilarious comment. And if she's just saying that in like a who the hell am I? Oh my god, I used to f she says like I used to fear muscles or something, and I find that very relatable.

Bridget 55:46

Yeah, yeah. I think there were what there were ways that that message could have come across without being constantly like, wow, you're hot, you're massive, I'm tiny, I'm hot. Everyone else sucks. Like you didn't have to have that constantly. But if we didn't have that conversation, do you think we could have what I think was the worst part of the book? Was when she ran and jumped at him and then clung onto him like a koala. Actually, that was so awful. He walking around his apartment making an omelette for her. Well so embarrassing. Like you've barely kissed at this point.

Laura 56:26

That was excruciating.

Bridget 56:28

Get down, Lucy. Get down, get down. Why did she why did she do that?

Laura 56:36

Oh my god, it actually blocked that. That was excruciating. And when she was like, you know, it forces me to readjust when he bends over, like, just just get down. You should just hop down.

Bridget 56:47

You should never have hopped up.

Laura 56:50

It's so bad.

Bridget 56:52

Absolutely insane behaviour from her. Yeah, that is unhinged.

Laura 56:56

I feel like her obsession with her tininess was made a little bit worse by the fact that she was speaking quite fat phobically about other characters in the book, particularly Mr. Bexley. And it's not something I picked up on initially because I found him disgusting. I like did not enjoy him as a character and didn't have any empathy or sympathy for him. But I guess when you're using fat as a slur with the intention of harming someone or using it as an insult, there's like some pretty negative connotations with that. Like she could have used any other word to describe him, honestly. Just on the topic of her smallness, like I think the way that it's first introduced, she says she's barely five foot. And then on page 22, she says, it's school over again. Tiny runt of the little Lucy using her pathetic cuteness to avoid being destroyed by the big kids. I've always been the pet, the lucky charm, the one being pushed on the swings or pulled in a wagon, carried and coddled, and perhaps I am a little bit pathetic. That was a real womp womp for me. Like, calm down. Yeah, but like people have real problems. What? Like at the same time, how can the author be writing that? Like, actually, like there's I read that and I was like, there's no way this is anything but a joke, right? Like, have you seen that TikTok trend where people will tell like a full-on serious story? Like, oh my god, you guys won't believe what just happened to me. I was just about to board the plane and they pulled me aside, and they were like, ma'am, I'm so sorry, but we simply don't have a chair that's gonna accommodate you. You're too tiny, you're too small, you're gonna slip through the cracks. And there was a line here where she said, speaking of Joshua, he reclines back in his chair in a way I can never manage to do. The back of my chair doesn't budge when I've tried to recline. I only succeed in rolling backwards and bumping into the wall. Okay. Just so light as a feather you can't even make a dent on that chair. Oh god, she's like you I just had to choose to ignore it. Same. Otherwise, it would ruin it. There was a point as well. I had literally just been thinking to myself, yeah, like he acknowledges she's small, but he's not weird about it. I think it was when they're at the wedding, he said something like, You're so small, you're like a child. And I was like, Oh scratch that from my memory. But like just the very next page. I know. People can be small and not children. Please, like, for the love of God, let's all remember that. Let's leave the children out of it.

Bridget 59:17

Something that really broke my heart after her sick weekend, and then she came into the office and Danny was there being annoying, and then the rose that was on the desk actually felt pain for Josh because how embarrassing is that, like, to put yourself out there, like you're not sure how well it's gonna be received, and then to have this guy come in and like act as if he'd spent the weekend with her and was kissing her on the cheek and saying, My girl, and whatever, and then it it's so like vulnerable in that position to have that rose on that.

Laura 59:44

Oh, I could not do it. I felt so sad for him. Oh, it was sad, and I loved the way he sent her the roses with the note saying, You are always beautiful.

Bridget 59:56

It annoys me that she's so dense that she couldn't figure out that it was him, but I mean, would have been a confusing situation. Even just when she was like, Thanks, and he was like, Yeah, thanks for the great time. And then she again said, Thanks for the roses, I love them. And daisies, you mean daisies? Yeah, so dense. So many signs.

Laura 1:00:16

I'm just so shocked to have found myself enjoying Josh or enjoying this type of character. And I don't know if there's anything that really sets him apart, but for whatever reason, I just like really ate up his dialogue. And one particular example of this that made me lose my mind was when Lucy is like just begging him to have sex, like, let's just get it over and done with. They're gonna have sex one time to just get it out of their system. That old gem. She says, Let's call in sick tomorrow, and he says, like I'm gonna waste my one big chance on a generic Monday night. It won't be a waste. How can I explain it? He says. When we were kids, Patrick would always eat his Easter egg straight away. I could make mine last until my birthday. Then she says, And why wouldn't you eat it straight away exactly? He strokes my hair away from my shoulder. It made Patrick sweat. He'd go into my room and obsess over it. He'd ask me every day if I'd eaten it. It drove him insane. It drove my parents goddamn insane. Even they'd beg me to eat it. When I finally did, it tasted better, knowing how bad someone else wanted it. And I was like, like there's quite a like toxic line of thinking like someone else wants you, it makes me want you more. But for whatever reason, because I just like I just didn't see him as that character. Like I thought he was just kind of a nerd. He's just like a normal guy, I think. And then she says, It's perverted to be turned on by a childhood story about two brothers, isn't it? And then she says, Did you eat it a bite at a time, or did you snap one Dan Gorge on it? And he says, I guess you'll find out eventually.

Bridget 1:01:42

And I was like, What? Paige Turner. What? Oh my god.

Laura 1:01:49

Anyway, I just like I just continually shocked myself by my enjoyment of this book, What's and all, honestly. Against my better judgment. Against my best judgment, honestly.

Bridget 1:02:02

Yeah, we're fully aware of how hypocritical and I was getting stressed.

Laura 1:02:08

I was like, everyone's gonna, they're gonna be mad at me, they're gonna eat me.

Bridget 1:02:12

They'll be happy for us, Bridget, probably. Yeah, we found a romance book that we like that isn't like some literary fiction stunner.

Laura 1:02:20

You're so right. Like, they're so earnest. I think this book knows it's not really dealing with anything too heavy. There's no like eating disorder and like emotional abuse storyline, like interwoven, like there's no pregnancy trope, there's no like proposal.

Bridget 1:02:36

Even the thing with the girlfriend, like his ex-girlfriend marrying the brother, that's not even a big issue. They're not broken up for weeks, they get through their shit like in an hour.

Laura 1:02:46

Actually, there's like not really that many misunderstandings. It's that's so nice, too, because the kind of misunderstanding has been their relationship up until this point. And what we get to see is this like delicious little slice where they are working out. Hang on a minute, I've had you wrong all along. Oh my god, it's so good. So good.

Bridget 1:03:09

Now is the time we're gonna play our favourite game in the world to play, and it's the favorite character game, the least favorite character game, and it's the little shit game. Let's start with the first one. Laura, who is your favorite character in this book?

Laura 1:03:23

I think my favorite character would have to be Lucy. And I say that because of the sheer shock of reading a tiny girl that didn't fill me with absolute rage.

Bridget 1:03:36

I agree, Lucy, but Josh is a very close second. And the same with the movie. Lucy Hale in the movie's incredible. The man, take him or leave him, honestly. But Lucy. What a delight. What a delight, honestly.

Laura 1:03:49

I'm shocked. What about your least favourite character? Um, I mean, I really hated the dad. That feels like an obvious choice. Yeah. And I really hated um the Mr. Bexley character.

Bridget 1:04:01

I really didn't like Danny either. I think he could have been a bit more interesting. So I think my least favourite character is Danny. And now finally, lit or shit. Wow. The suspense.

Laura 1:04:16

Yeah, we really kept him guessing with that one. Have everyone on the edge of their seats. Which way is it gonna go? Oh, I don't know.

Bridget 1:04:22

It's lit. It's it's a hundred percent, I mean uh 99% lit.

Laura 1:04:26

Yeah. But I don't feel like this is one that's going to get darker and worse the more I think on it. I think it is it is just what it is.

Bridget 1:04:35

Yeah, it is what it is. It's silly, it's not taking itself too seriously, it's funny. It gets the job done. It it does. Okay, now that we've answered that question, let's go have some strawberries. Strawberries sounds great. Our next episode, we will be exploring the depths of our almighty simultaneous reading slobs and discussing if we will ever claw our way out. Have your say on what we read next by keeping an eye on the link in our show notes and on our socials. Make sure you subscribe to the show, and if you want to be on the same page as us, follow us at talklit.gethit on Instagram and TikTok.

Laura 1:05:11

Love games. Dear love me. You're playing those love games with me.