will we become 1% better at hating self help books by the end of this episode? - atomic habits by james clear

in this podcast episode we are starting the year fresh and making brazen attempts to overhaul our lives and identities. our podcast book selection for January 2025 is Atomic Habits by James Clear. this is a book that promises to 'reveal practical strategies that will teach you exactly how to form good habits, break bad ones and master the tiny behaviours that lead to remarkable results'. we discuss our 2025 ins and outs, lofty reading aspirations, wellness and diet culture, gingerbread houses, spice tolerance, the TikTok bean soup fiasco and, of course, weigh in with our thoughts on Atomic Habits by James Clear. p.s. we hope you enjoy the rain ASMR (it was bucketing down when we recorded this episode).

synopsis music by Dvir Silver    

choose our next podcast read by going here and voting in the first week of each month!

make sure you subscribe to hear our groundbreaking thoughts as soon as they are unleashed. if you want to be on the same page as us, follow us at talklit.gethit on Instagram and TikTok.

theme music born from the creative genius of Big Boi B.

join talk lit, get hit podcast for deep dives into the hottest BookTok recommendations, trending contemporary fiction, and literary favourites! each episode features book discussions, spoiler-filled chats, and thoughtful literary analysis of novels everyone is talking about - from viral romance and fantasy to modern classics. whether you’re looking for BookTok book reviews, author interviews, or a virtual book club experience, out podcast is your go-to space for readers who love stories and want to explore them in depth.

talk lit, get hit are reading and recording on Giabal, Jagera, Jarowair & Turrbal lands. we acknowledge the cultural diversity of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and pay respect to Elders past, present and future. always was, always will be.  

Transcript

Laura 0:01

Hello and welcome to Talk Lit Get Hit, a podcast where we read viral books the internet won't shut up about and rate them lit or shit.

Bridget 0:09

We're your hosts Bridget and Laura, lovers of sad girl fiction and tragic endings, fearers of smut, urban fantasy, and the Who Did This To You trope. Join us as we pick apart all the books the internet loves and embark on a journey to figure out why.

Laura 0:23

Hello and welcome to the first episode of Talk Lit Get Hit for 2025. Whether you're looking to improve your personal life, career, or health, this episode probably won't help you in any way, but who knows what wisdom we may uncover as we discuss the self-help book Atomic Habits by James Clear. Bridget, hello, hello. Hello, hello. Wow, first one for 2025? I know. I can't tell you how many times I said 2024.

Bridget 0:50

I know. I think that might be the first time I've said 2025.

Laura 0:53

I know. Made me feel sick to my core.

Bridget 0:55

Very exciting. 2023. Am I right, ladies? What have you been doing in your holiday break? It's been a while. It has been a while. I haven't been doing much. My mum and I made a gingerbread house that was really funny looking. It was a beach shack and it was from Kmart. We tasted a little bit of the icing and the gingerbread and the lollies to put on the top. Absolutely disgusting. Tasted like powder. The icing was like blended up jelly beans with no flavour. It was so gross and it looks insane.

Laura 1:27

I have, in fact, seen a picture of this beach house and it looks like it's it's seen some better days.

Bridget 1:33

It really has. It is still surviving. I would say yesterday. Yeah, but don't buy gingerbread house kits from Kmart. This is a PSA because I mean also just to put them on blast, the picture on the front of the box is not the same as the picture in the instructions. So if you're following the picture on the box like a puzzle, you you will soon realize that it's not going to work that way for you.

Laura 1:54

It's like those fake phone games.

Bridget 1:56

Yes, yes, exactly. It's false advertising, and I'm so sick of it because I get caught up with those phone games all the time. Take them to the ACCC. I think I will. So that's the first thing I've been doing. Second thing is puzzles. Mum and I have been doing. 2025. Yeah. Really living the dream. Puzzles while watching The Chase. That's nice. Or my other favorite tipping point. How about you? What have you been up to?

Laura 2:22

Not a lot. I've also been on holidays. I've just gone back to work. I just spent them pretty much doing nothing. Reading, lying down, cleaning out cupboards. I didn't think about this at all, but I actually have nothing to tell you. It's been so nice. I'm somebody that struggles to relax, I guess. Not that I am so driven and productive all the time. It's more that I have a crushing sense of guilt. Same. Or like a paralyzing sense of guilt, but I felt none of that these holidays. I was just kind of like, I want to lie down and I will, god damn it. And it was great. That is great. I'm very happy for you. So it's been a time for relaxation and reflection. And so I was thinking we could start this year with a wholesome, well, maybe not so wholesome, I don't know, discussion about our 2025 ins and outs.

Bridget 3:13

I really struggled to think of ins and outs. I was scrolling madly through TikTok trying to find something that wasn't 10,000 subs per day, drink water, take vitamins, a desperate search for some inspiration, but I didn't find much.

Laura 3:27

No, I had the realization that I'm the most boring person in the world because every single one I was like, I would like to do that. Yes, I would love to do five HIT workouts a week. Yeah, I do need more magnesium. Do you want to start? One of my first ones is that this year I really want to get out of the new release book cycle. Oh. It has me by the throat, and I can't stop only reading new books. That's so interesting. But one of the things I did over the holidays was that I cleaned out my books and I put all of my books into an app so that I had an idea of what I have read and what I haven't read. And I've only read about a third of the books that I physically own, and I own like 300. So a lot of the ones I haven't read are older, and I just don't know why I don't read them. It's shiny and it's new and it's tempting and everybody's talking about it. And I kind of have this idea of like, how do you even find out about old books because people aren't talking about them?

Bridget 4:23

And then I'm like, I can be that person. That's great. That's a really good one. I have been trying to read all the books that I have not read for, I mean, probably two years now, but I don't have many left. I think I have like maybe 20 left, which is pretty good because I think I have 500 and something books last time I checked, but I haven't updated that app either, so I need to do it again. My first in for 2025 is also a reading-related one. And I want to start over-categorizing my books on Goodreads. Every year I'm like, I'm gonna make lists that are so profound and so easy to find. So if someone wants a recommendation or I need to talk about something on the podcast, I can like search up books about the ocean in my Goodreads and find them very easily. So I have started doing that.

Laura 5:13

What do you have so far?

Bridget 5:14

So far, mainly boring ones like fiction, non-fiction, diverse authors because of this. Uh, but then also I made one yesterday, Um Okay, because I thought that would be a good thing for books that are a bit weird.

Laura 5:27

Yes, I like that.

Bridget 5:28

Uh so the first book in that is Lap Vona, which I finished yesterday, and that was very um okay. And that's a good I'm okay. It was a four-star for me. So that's not a what is this? That's a okay. What is this? Okay, yeah.

Laura 5:42

Nice. So that's my first one.

Bridget 5:44

What's your second one?

Laura 5:45

Uh my second one is financial literacy. I don't really need to expand on that apart from the fact that I have money and I don't know what I'm doing with it. Got some bank accounts, couldn't tell you when I started them, couldn't tell you why. I just have no idea what's coming in, what's going out, what to do with it, what I should be doing with it, how it all works. I I've got no idea. So that's that.

Bridget 6:07

I think you meant to invest in meme coins. I think that's what you're doing Doge.

Laura 6:11

Is that still a thing? What about you?

Bridget 6:13

My second one is Margaret Qually, because I'm obsessed with that. And I haven't seen a single thing she's been in. I haven't seen a movie or a TV show. I've watched a lot of The Maid on TikTok. Um not a I've yeah, I've seen like 10 seconds of the substance. Um, not interested in seeing anything more. I've just Googled. Actually, this is another in that I might talk about later, but I Googled it, not interested in seeing it, but I know what it's about, so I can join in the conversation. But yeah, Margaret Qually, as Lana Del Rey said, he met Margaret on a rooftop and said, Oh god, I think I'm in trouble. And I'm obsessed with her. She is dazzling. She is. Yeah, she really is. I love her frizzy hair. It's really nice.

Laura 6:59

Uh, my next one is wind chimes. Oh, I love wind chimes. I just listen to them all the time. Do you have any at home? No.

Bridget 7:13

It's your birthday soon.

Laura 7:14

Well, I would see this is the thing. No, just buy wind chimes for Laura's birthday so many chimes. But this is this is my beef with um like the wind chime industry. It's that they're all so ugly. So ugly. They're obviously got like a little fairy or like a dolphin. Like they're made of like old spoons or something. Yeah.

Bridget 7:40

I just like, is it so hard to have a nice mellow? There's a witchy shop around the corner for me. So I went there once and I bought it's not a wind chime, but it is like a hanging crystal, you know, that kind of shit. And it's very nice, but I might go back and see if they have any wind chimes. Please. It's called like Mystic Pleasures or something. Oh my god. Where did she get the inspiration for wind chimes? Does someone you know have them? Or you're you is there like some house you walk past every day that's just jingle jangling?

Laura 8:13

Um, I actually, yeah, I sometimes do hear them when I'm out on my walk around the neighborhoods staring like deep into people's verandahs and thinking about like what life would be like if I lived at those houses. I listen to I listen to a lot of like spa and meditation music. And I think wind chimes feature heavily in those. Fan pipes and wind chimes. I'm really worried. I'm creating negative associations in my mind because I listen to it at work. I can't do like binaural beats or like white noise and that kind of thing. Sometimes it's sometimes it kind of like gets under my skin, makes me feel a bit crazy. Haven't found the frequency that works for me, but spa music hits the spot. But I'm worried that because I listen to it at work so much, I'm gonna go to have a massage or whatever. It'd be like, get me out of this type.

Bridget 9:05

My next one is not getting hung up on story graph statistics, specifically physical versus audio versus digital, because last year I found myself sort of chained to the idea that I should be reading more physical than anything else, which is ridiculous because I know that audiobooks are reading and I know that reading on a Kindle is reading, and I know all these things, but in my mind I'm like, no, I'm not a real reader unless most of the books I read are physical books. I know it's not real, but I need to that's what I'm going to be doing this year. I'm going to be focusing on reading in whatever format suits me at that time.

Laura 9:40

I really like that because I have felt the same. I was looking over my reading list and dismayed. I was like, oh, my list halves when I look at how many audiobooks I've read. And then it's like, what a stupid attitude to have. Next one on my list is just being a bit more mysteriouslash knowing less about people.

Bridget 9:59

I was gonna put that on there too. Especially in regards to colleagues. I think I know too much about my colleagues and I share too much about myself. It's like I saw a TikTok the other day that said there was a gap in the conversation, so I shared all of my deepest secrets.

Laura 10:15

That is me. Yeah, I relate to that. I might get taken to HR, but I have a picture pinned at my desk at work that's from The Flight of the Concords. It's of Murray and Greg. And Murray's like, Do you think of us as friends, Greg? And Greg says, I sure hope so, Murray. And Murray says, Well, we're not, we're colleagues. And that's the energy I want to bring to work, to be honest. But I also just think in terms of social media, I have no interest in commodifying my personal life. And I've given it a go, and it's it's kind of miserable. Hats off to you if you can do it and still find joy in both of those things, but it ain't for me, I'm sorry.

Bridget 11:03

My next in for 2025 is the theory that half-assed is better than nothing, because I have this all or nothing attitude, and I think if I don't do it right, then I shouldn't do it. And that is for like cleaning, that is for literally everything in my life. So if I'm not gonna wipe down every single skirting board in the house, I'm not gonna do any of it, and that's a really bad way to live your life. So I think half-assed is better than nothing. If you give it one skirting board a quick wipe, the other million are gonna be fine. An atomic skirting board. Literally, so yeah, half-assed is better than nothing.

Laura 11:39

I really like that. I think I could use that advice as well. Um, my next is just skin checks, breast checks, pap smears. Go get them.

Bridget 11:48

This is just a plug. I did that last year. I did like everything, and then now it's like come time for another skin check, and I'm like, I just did it. I know.

Laura 11:57

And in should also probably be accessible and affordable healthcare.

Bridget 12:01

Yes. Um dental included in Medicare would be fantastic.

Laura 12:06

These trompers ain't getting any younger.

Bridget 12:09

Obviously, we're gonna be gearing up with you, Australian politics. Yes. The election later in the year, but we're campaigning for dental and in healthcare. That is related to mine because my next in is the sun. And I'm not talking about tanning, like I see some losers on TikTok talking about, and I'm not talking about the cool cabana controversy because who gives a shit? But I'm talking about me actually standing in the sun for a little bit of time in order to get some vitamin D. So last year I had a blood test, found out I was severely vitamin D deficient. The doctor said I'm too sun safe. I had the same feedback. So it's it's hard to wrap your head around, but I need to spend some time in the sun every day. She said on the weekend, try a few hours because I was so low. Just get roasted, please. Literally, by the doctor and by the sun.

Laura 13:03

So probably the most intriguing one on my list is that I have a strong desire to up my spice tolerance this year. Just strikes me as like a very chic and like casual thing to just be able to like neck a really hot movie. Are you campaigning to be on hot ones? Campaign starts now.

Bridget 13:26

God, I wouldn't it feel good though to get on hot ones and be able to take that pop. I mean, I've never watched a single episode, but I I think I understand the concept. You just eat wings that get gradually hotter, is that right? Wouldn't it be amazing to be able to eat that hottest one and have no qualms?

Laura 13:43

Yeah, and like celebrities like Lord did amazingly well. And she was kind of like, mmm, yummy. Like good flavor. Yeah. I don't know why we sound like fake Australian accents to do. I can't do a New Zealand accent.

Bridget 13:59

My last in is Googling the plots of movies that you don't want to see, which is every movie for me. And I it is something I've been doing for a while, but I've started doing it with like with reckless abandon. Like I just Google whatever. Even if I think I might watch it one day, I don't care. I'm gonna Google it. I remember when I watched Silence of the Lambs, I was so scared. And I just thought, I'm just gonna Google what happens, then I can watch it and without being like scared of what's gonna happen. And it really improved that experience for me. It was a great movie because I knew what was gonna happen and I wasn't gonna be caught unawares.

Laura 14:31

I like that. I like that with books that are quite boring or dumb, but you've invested too much time already. So sometimes I will just Google what happens in the rest of the book, and when I read it, I'll still finish it, but I'll just kind of skim it and it just kind of takes the outrage, the wind out of my sails.

Bridget 14:47

What about your outs? My first out is one that I've been feeling for a while, and I've treated this as sort of my like my only New Year's resolution as well, and that is no more threads. I hate threads, the app, I mean, not like clothes. I hate how it is full of rage bait. I hate how you get a little sneak peek on Instagram and then you have to click on it because you have to know what this absolute idiot is saying, and then you just get angry because it's like oh my water bottle lid doesn't work, and it's like a picture of a big water bottle with a tiny lid. And it's like, well, you're just doing this to annoy me, and it worked, and I hate it. So I've deleted it from my phone and I've hidden it every time it comes up on my Instagram feed. I can't. I I nearly did it yesterday because I got so sucked in and I just had to stop.

Laura 15:41

I wholeheartedly agree. I mean, I think Rage Bait is a great out. I find it to be the worst on threads. I deleted TikTok over the holidays because I was just sick of wasting my own time, and as a result, I've been watching a lot more reels than usual. But I think the thing that's good about reels is that they're outrageous in a different kind of way. Like the algorithm isn't as good or the search functionality. You can't really use reels like a search engine. I find that I can't go down a wormhole. It's much easier to be bored. Yeah. And the videos on there are just more dumb. They're not so applicable to me. They haven't somehow learned my niche angers, and so I'm it's easy to look away. What is your first out for the year? My first out is those TikToks where people are showing a list, but they put their little green screen picture over the whole list as they're talking you through the list.

Bridget 16:33

I was gonna talk to you about this at breakfast. I was literally gonna rage about this like an hour ago. I hate it so much. Same. I don't know what it's called, but the line at the bottom where you can like scrub along to the end. I just every time I just go straight to the end. I'm not interested in hearing their descriptions. I just want to see the list.

Laura 16:52

And I know they're like obviously in front of it, so that it's like a little oh, what will I reveal next? But sometimes people just stay in front of it the whole time.

Bridget 17:00

Sometimes there's 15 things on the list and they only talk about two and it's a two-minute long video. I hate it.

Laura 17:05

God, we're full of rage today. I'm actually like my chest is tightening.

Bridget 17:10

What's next on your list? Continuing on with the negativity. Mine is the I'm just a girl trend. I hate it.

Laura 17:19

Oh my god, this was gonna be on mine too, or like something in this fame.

Bridget 17:23

There's a car around the corner from me that parks on the street. It's a cute little gymney. I love it. But on the back it says, I'm just a girl. It says something about I hit curbs. Like, for one, we don't even call them curbs in Australia. We say gutter, right? I hit the gutter. It's so disheartening. Like to think of how far we've come, the work that I did in my teens to sort of get rid of that internalized misogyny and like the way I've seen the internet going through Tumblr and then Instagram and now onto TikTok. I feel like we have just taken like a big swan dive back into the past. It's so annoying. I hate it.

Laura 18:00

Yes, I hate it too. I was thinking about like girl math, girl dinner, like oh, just yeah, stop diminishing your own intelligence.

Bridget 18:09

I know, and like diminishing yourself, like oh working at my girl job while I wait for my man to come home from his big man job. No, shut up. Making my silly little drink, colouring in on my silly little iPad. Stop it.

Laura 18:22

Everything's whimsical and fun, and I don't have any thoughts. I hate it. Yeah, same. We're so hateful. What's your next one? My next one is asking the internet, what are we wearing? Oh, yes. I was gonna say this. And again, like this has probably come from a recent personal revelation. Like, I have hated it the whole time. Like, have an original thought, grow up, stop perpetuating consumerism, whatever. But in the week or so, I think it was about two weeks that I didn't have TikTok. I felt so much happier getting dressed every single day. I was like, wow, my clothes are really nice. I think this outfit has come together well. I think this feels like me. It's like, oh, I have nothing to compare it to. Nobody telling me that like sambas are out. Or like, I don't know. What's the white sneaker we're wearing?

Bridget 19:17

Skinny jeans or in chimgi. Oh, it makes me so angry. And I I mean, I'm there's so many people smarter than me that could say this in a better way, but I think with the rise of TikTok has been the fall of microcultures.

Laura 19:30

I'm not saying my personal style is groundbreaking or I've like revolutionized it, but it was just very freeing to remove that noise.

Bridget 19:39

I think Amazon shopfronts in bios are to blame for this. Even though I love her, people like Emily Kaiser, you know, everyone wants to emulate her style, which fair enough, she looks great. But I think people have forgotten how to have individual interests and tastes. Yes. My next out is speaking up in meetings. I need to stop doing this because it prolongs the meeting and it never brings anything good. A lot of risk, a little reward. Not even like getting into like disagreements or fighting. I just think I just need to stop speaking.

Laura 20:15

Mere seconds ago. Don't diminish yourself. Don't make yourself small. You're not just a girl.

Bridget 20:20

Yeah, but what I say is not gonna matter. Like, I'm not gonna change the policies of I know exactly what you mean. It doesn't matter. Why like why do I feel the need to get involved?

Laura 20:30

It's exhausting to get involved at work, and I think you just have to, you know, you're just a cog in the wheel. I think it's work.

Bridget 20:36

I just do my job and then just stay silent the rest of the time. Because speaking of at meetings, that's not my job. It's got nothing to do with what I do. I'm not a change maker. I'm not. So that's my out. It's just for me, really. Just shut up.

Laura 20:50

The next most pertinent one on my list would be not knowing how to take a proper 0.5 outfit selfie. I cannot get a grip on how to use that camera or where to point it. All I ever get is like forehead and chins and my feet, or like 80% of the frame is my arm. And I've watched so many tutorials. And I can I've like tried to watch myself in the mirror to like figure out what the camera is pointing at. I cannot get it right and it kills me. I've been working on this for like two years. So are you thinking give up or find a different way to learn how to do it? I've got to, yeah, I've got to go through like some sort of training montage because I want them. I I'm like, how do I document my outfits? Because I still enjoy documenting my outfits because I forget what I wear and like what good combinations are and outfits I liked, but I want to make a frickin video every single time. I can't figure it out.

Bridget 21:47

I think the key is nonchalance. Yeah. Maybe it's like watching someone of an older generation text. They don't use their thumbs, they use their like pointer finger. It just might be a skill. Shoe with your muscles. You might need to work on some muscles or something.

Laura 22:03

I mean, not to skip over yours, but that does kind of tie into one of my other acts, which was ageism against myself.

Bridget 22:10

That's good. I was thinking the other day because I saw on the news there's a new generation. Or whatever. Can't remember what it's called. Don't care. Because I'm always like, hmm, technically I'm a millennial, but I identify as Gen Z because none of the things that I do and the just trying to make myself cool. But like, how far can I stretch it? Can I make myself into Gen Alpha as well?

Laura 22:33

I think so.

Bridget 22:34

I have one more, and that is spending more than eight hours on your phone a day because it's a real problem for me. So at the moment I'm on holidays, very long holidays, and you know, I go to the gym and I tidy up the house, but because I've done that every day for the last nearly four weeks, there's nothing left to tidy. And so there's nothing left for me to do other than be on my phone.

Laura 22:58

It is very spick and span in here.

Bridget 23:00

I don't like watching TV really. I don't like watching movies. I just like looking at my phone, but it's bad. So that's my goal. I don't know how I'm gonna achieve it because I mean the the tips in this book, as we'll talk about, are not gonna help me.

Laura 23:13

Because I'm a hater, I'm just gonna rapid fire go through the rest of my outs. I love it. I have monetizing hobbies, overly complicated skincare, PR hauls, low information literacy slash pretending like reading slash anything isn't political, anything microfiber, inner thigh chafe, iPhone finger, and not getting tattoos because I'm scared of my family's reaction in brackets. I'm 30.

Bridget 23:38

Yeah, I agree with all of those. iPhone finger, I noticed that a while ago. Yeah, it it's on my mind a lot. It's like my special bitch finger. What were that? I can't remember the other ones.

Laura 23:52

What were they? I know I like got so filled with rage as I said them, I forgot them as soon as I did. Um, monetizing hobbies, even though I mean we haven't made any money over. That's what I thought. I was like, technically, I'm not even calling myself out because we haven't made a dime. Well, with all of those ins and outs churning in our system, should we perhaps get into the episode? Yeah, we probably should. Am I correct in thinking that this is a book that you've read before?

Bridget 24:21

Yes, it is. I've read this before. It was part of this thing that had required reading. It was like a knockoff of 75 hard, and I did not enjoy being dictated to being told what I had to read. I was petulantly reading my required 10 minutes a day or whatever. It was a wholly negative experience. How about you? Have you read this before?

Laura 24:43

No, I haven't read this book before. I was quite apprehensive about reading a non-fiction book because I was worried that I would find it boring. I'm always eager for someone to give me a blueprint on how to live my life, but at the same time, I hate to be told what to do, and especially by a man. So I mean, I kind of thought that maybe this wasn't gonna go so well.

Bridget 25:06

I was mainly resistant to the book, both then, which I think was maybe 2019, and now because it was written by men. I'm resistant to help. And also it's popular with the masses, and honestly, I feel like that can often only mean bad things.

Laura 25:25

You mentioned earlier that you were categorizing your Goodreads books. Did you find much self-help in there?

Bridget 25:32

I did actually. I found a few. I love a good like home organization book. I love reading the home edit books. I don't know if you're familiar with the home edit, but they're those two women that insist that everything you have in your fridge and in your pantry has to be in a clear acrylic container with the labels on it. They don't go to like whole food bulk stores and fill up their containers. What they do is they go to, I assume, Walmart and then decant their things that find punnets of blueberries. Yeah, in plastic into like another form of plastic. Whereas I do it, I take the jar to the shop and I get rice. Also, I like the way it looks. Anyway, I've read a few of those books. I read a fridge book once about how to best um organize your fridge and like you know how to store and prepare your foods for like longevity and your fridge is organized. I love your lazy Susan. Yeah, it's very handy. I've read The Barefooted Investor. I've read a lot of zero waste ones. Yeah. I have two that haunt me. It's one one is Can't Hurt Me by David Goggins, and the second is Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink and Leif Babin, and that's how they talk. And extreme ownership is probably the worst one of the two. It's like these two Marines that were like fighting in Iraq and all the oh, it's so insufferable and I hate it so much.

Laura 26:54

How was that a part of the 75 Heart?

Bridget 26:57

I definitely I wouldn't have read them by myself. Took nothing from them. I just don't think that I'm the the target audience, but I think about them a lot. How about you? What's your experience with self-help books?

Laura 27:08

It's pretty limited. I think at the start of most years I go through a phase of like, I'm gonna correct my digestive health. And so I've read a lot of books on improving your gut health or like your digestive system. And then some other books that I've read that I'm not really strictly sure if they classify as self-help, but I read that book that was going around like in 2017, maybe about emulating a Danish lifestyle, like Hug, I don't know how to say the word Hurg. And another name that I will butcher is the author Elaine Debaton. But he's the author of books like Status Anxiety and The Course of Love and Religion for Atheists, and I've read a few of those, kind of a bit more philosophy-leaning, I guess. But he does also have a YouTube channel and blog called The School of Life that I got really into. My parents did buy me the barefoot investor. Um might need to crack it open if you can like it did. And I had a pretty lukewarm attempt at it, but I mean, as we established earlier in the episode, my financial literacy is really low, so even this beginner guide was simply too much for me. So, no, it's not something I'm really interested in dabbling in at all. Like I said earlier, I don't really like to be told what to do. I just want like one tip. I don't want a book of tips, I find that very stressful. We may be discussing themes of ableism, fat phobia, and classism. If you'd like to steer clear of any of these topics, you can pause the episode now.

Bridget 28:42

Transform your life with tiny changes in behavior, starting now. People think that when you want to change your life, you need to think big. But world-renowned habits expert James Clear has discovered another way. He knows that real change comes from the compound effect of hundreds of small decisions, doing two push-ups a day, waking up five minutes early, or holding a single short phone call. He calls them atomic habits.

Laura 29:05

In this groundbreaking book, Clear reveals exactly how these minuscule changes can grow into such life-altering outcomes. He uncovers a handful of simple life hacks, the forgotten art of habit stacking, the unexpected power of the two-minute rule, or the trick to entering the Goldilocks zone, and delves into cutting-edge psychology and neuroscience to explain why they matter.

Bridget 29:26

Along the way, he tells inspiring stories of Olympic gold medalists, leading CEOs, and distinguished scientists who have used the science of tiny habits to stay productive, motivated, and happy. These small changes will have a revolutionary effect on your career, your relationships, and your life. Now that we've both read the book, Laura, would you like to tell us your post-read feelings? I would love to, Bridget. I don't have really any feelings. Don't want to interrupt you, but my first note is overwhelmingly, I feel nothing.

Laura 30:04

Truly, I was so stressed about what the hell I was gonna talk about in this episode.

Bridget 30:09

I feel like someone who walks into a modern art gallery and loudly scoffs. I could have done that. That being said, he did do it. He did do it. And he did acknowledge on page nine that it wasn't his ideas.

Laura 30:26

But I was out on a walk trying to formulate my thoughts about this book. And instead of writing it down, I just recorded a long voice memo. I talked for so long, like 15 minutes. And I thought I would use the transcript function. And when I went back to listen to it, there was no audio and there was no transcript, and it just hadn't worked at all. And I just think that just says so much. What is there to say?

Bridget 30:51

A lot of it to me, like most of the book, it's like duh.

Laura 30:55

Yeah.

Bridget 30:56

But does that mean I follow the rules in my own life? No. Of course, if you want to start waking up earlier, you wake up one minute earlier every day.

Laura 31:03

Like, duh. I think we'll get into the ins and outs of James Clear's teachings soon, but maybe to start with, we should establish the framework that James Clear is laying out in atomic habits. He suggests using a framework called the Four Laws of Behavior Change. These are a simple set of rules for creating good habits and breaking bad ones. So how to create a good habit? The first law is Q, make it obvious. Second, craving, make it attractive. Third, response, make it easy. And the fourth, reward, make it satisfying. How to break a bad habit? Crazy, but he inverts them. Q, make it invisible. Craving, make it unattractive, response, make it difficult, and reward make it unsatisfying.

Bridget 31:53

I find it so interesting how you've just summed that up in about a minute, but he spent a whole book trying to write about it.

Laura 32:01

I mean, it's the meeting that could have been an email, the book that could have been a blog post. Or should have stayed as a blog post. This is something that I found in my notes. Uh one of them was I'm about halfway through, and I think I've already learned everything I'm gonna learn from this book in the first quarter. And I think that's true. I got to the end and I thought, well, he could have wrapped that up a lot quicker.

Bridget 32:26

Should we talk about James Clear as a person? Because we find out a little bit about him in the book through some really interesting anecdotes at the start of some chapters. But I mean, let's talk about who he is as a person. Yeah. James Clear, the man, the myth, the maverick.

Laura 32:43

I was actually really surprised, and I think this can be seen as some sort of comment on the vast nothingness of this book, but I googled James Clear Atomic Habits Controversy, and very little came up. A little bit here and there, but I was kind of expecting this to be like chock full of bullshit, I guess, essentially.

Bridget 33:02

The only things I know about him is just straight from his Wikipedia page. Uh he's 39. Which was a shock to me. I thought he was older than that, but he's 39. He has a degree in biomechanics from Denison University, but that's really it as far as his qualifications go, as far as I can tell.

Laura 33:19

That's all I've seen about his qualifications as well. He just strikes me as somebody who got a blog. People like the blog, and then he thought, hang on a minute, I should do a TED talk. This could be good.

Bridget 33:35

I found the part in the introduction very interesting about how and why he wrote this book. So he said, in November 2012, I began publishing articles at jamesclear.com. For years I had been keeping notes about my personal experiments with habits, and I was finally ready to share some of them publicly. I began by publishing a new article every Monday and Thursday. Within a few months, this simple writing habit led to my first 1,000 email subscribers. And by the end of 2013, that number had grown to more than 30,000 people. In 2014, my email list expanded to over 100,000 subscribers, which made it one of the fastest growing newsletters on the internet. I had felt like an imposter when I began writing two years earlier, but now I was becoming known as an expert on habits, a new label that excited me but also felt uncomfortable. I had never considered myself a master of the topic, but rather someone who was experimenting alongside my readers. I thought that was a very interesting perspective, and I was wondering if it is a male-centric approach to this sort of thing, because it sort of reminds me of that thing, and I couldn't really find any verification on this, so I'm just really using something I've probably seen on Tumblr or TikTok, but where males feel more comfortable asking for a raise or they're more successful in asking for a raise raise than females. Like, not to make it binary, males do this, females do this, but personally for me, I don't think I would follow the same trajectory as him. To start with writing a newsletter twice a week, continuing on with that, and then writing this book. I don't think I would see that in the cards for me. Even doing the podcast was a big step for me to be like, oh, I think what I'm saying is interesting. And even saying that sentence, I was like, ew. Yeah. But I think it takes a very specific kind of person to have that journey. And he says later on the book that he's not a writer and he's not a good writer, but he just kept pushing through because he thought, no, this is something that needs to be heard by people.

Laura 35:35

I agree with what you're saying. I think from the outset, I find self-help advice from somebody who's not really experiencing imposter syndrome to be a little bit alienating. Like an overarching theme with this kind of self-help book that I struggle with is that they seem to be coming from people that are already like driven, motivated, you know, naturally quite disciplined, people who have had a lot of structure in their life. And I think that those can be learned skills. At least in the case of James Clear, it doesn't really seem like it is because he's talking about implementing that lifestyle in college, which I think is something that most college students wouldn't be doing, or even people that are adults. Like adults don't often live that way. And so from the outset, I already feel like it's not applicable to me.

Bridget 36:22

I think you're right. And I think also it's very heavily one man's experience of how he views the world. And that's fine, it's his book. He cited his newsletter in 2012. This book was published in 2018. That's six years of alleged study or honing of craft or whatever you might call it. I find it hard to appreciate the book because I think in those six years, he hasn't really considered anybody else's lifestyle or anybody else's life experience. Like he's always talking about people that are married. He's always talking about people that have office jobs, he's always referencing successful men. He talks about, I think, one successful woman, the ballerina. The majority of the rest of the stories are about men. And I think if you have six years and you have obviously funds to support not having your traditional nine to five job, then I think it's your responsibility, if you're trying to write a self-help book, to talk to as many different people from as many different walks of life as possible, to think how can I help everybody and how can I share my story in a way that's not like alienating? Not to be like someone on TikTok who is watching a video for peanut butter and says, like, well, I'm allergic to peanuts. Like, that's not what I'm trying to say, but it it really reads like a white, straight, middle-aged man whose wife stays at home, cooks him dinner, organises his manicura appointments for him. And it's like an 80s stockbroker vibe. Honey, I'm home. I've just spent my day at the office, like drinking coffee around the water cooler. Like it was so boring and bland to me because of that. And I just thought, you spent six years studying this. Why is it the same story again and again and again?

Laura 38:12

Again and again. That's so funny that you use that peanut butter analogy. Because as I was thinking about this book and as I was reading it, I was really struggling with like falling victim to whataboutism or whatever you want to call it, the bean soup like analogy. I don't quite know how to feel because I think there is a real lack of acknowledgement for the role that lifestyle and privilege and like resource and money and support systems play in your ability to form habits. He does at one point say if you want behaviors that are stable and predictable, you need an environment that is stable and predictable. But he doesn't connect that point. When he's saying that, he's not connecting it to those concepts of privilege or like life circumstances. I don't quite know how to feel because I do think a lot of this advice resonated with me to a degree, but that's purely because I'm like able-bodied, reasonably financially stable. I have people that will support my goals and ambitions in my life. I'm very fortunate to have all those things in my life, but not everybody is. And I think there's a lot of nuance that James Clear fails to acknowledge.

Bridget 39:27

I think a really interesting example of what you just said is in one of the little stories that he provides at the start of every chapter to sort of give a preamble to what he's going to be talking about. Spoiler alert, it's the same thing every chapter. But one of the stories is about the US Army when they were stationed in Vietnam and how they all became drug addicts because of the situation they were in. And then when they returned home, they found that they were easily able to adapt to their pre-drug addict life and go back to their normal, uh normal lives, not even mentioning the, you know, severe trauma of war or you know, the atrocities they might have seen or uh have had to commit or anything like that. And then he talks about a drug addict who is living at home when they're a drug addict. And he's like, you know, they don't have the same opportunity because they're still in that environment. Move out of that environment, lol. Anyway, and that was all the advice he gave. Get out of that environment. What if that's not possible? What if the environment you're in, you're in there because you have no money, you don't have a stable job, you don't have family that could support you. It's not practical advice for most people, I would say.

Laura 40:37

And I this is what I really struggled with because I thought, how could he have fixed this? And what more could he have done? I don't know what the solution is. Should he have done a disclaimer at the start of the book that was like, this is general advice for people, like in these living circumstances, I can only speak from my experience and to those who live a similar life to me? Or is that too limited? Like, should should we not be offering broad self-help to anybody? Like, I guess the more you limit your audience, the less aspirational or like optimistic it is. But there was, yeah, a real lack of perspective and care around, you know, people who are chronically ill or people living with disability or people who are neurodiverse. And obviously, James Clear, I think, should probably not speak to those experiences because he has no training and no qualifications. But just like any caveat would be appreciated, I think.

Bridget 41:36

I think the difference between a memoir and a self-help book, there's a very fine line. I feel like this is a memoir with some helpful tips, even though we don't find out much about him.

Laura 41:47

Maybe my real problem is is less to do with the advice that James Clear was giving, but more to do with the way that he delivered it. It was delivered in this really kind of black and white, simplistic style that was like, if you hate your job, get a new one. If you don't like your mum's cooking, tell her to cook something better. Change your circumstances to change your life. Like I think I got really triggered the other day because I saw this TikTok that was like, you don't have a problem with free time, you have a problem with discipline or something like that. And it was just like, if you were just more disciplined and just like, you know, do all of your tasks and work harder so you have money and like clean your house, then you will have more free time and more funds to actually live your life and enjoy it.

Bridget 42:29

And I was just like, what a stupid point of view. I think you would describe the tone as flippant for a lot of his musings. I don't think there was much weight given to things. It was just like in one ear, thought about it for a second, out the other.

Laura 42:46

I'm not sure if I find this book particularly harmful. I think a lot of the anecdotes and the like his references don't exactly check out, but I can kind of get behind it.

Bridget 42:58

I think I was reading it with the lens of looking for outrage and I found none. Really. Like it, I just I really just felt nothing.

Laura 43:06

I just thought, okay. A lot of the science or the strategies that he used, I thought, mm, I am not sure that's right, but you know what? I love the idea of it. And I think it's more of a vibe than something that you have to think too hard about. For example, the 1% better rule. What the actual like what that is in 1% better, what does that really mean? Like 1% better per day.

Bridget 43:32

I I agree because what unit? How are we getting 1% better at things? What is the unit we're measuring these things by?

Laura 43:39

So I think James Clear has got this 1% better rule from the British cycling team, which was an anecdote. It's probably most controversial anecdote that he's used in the book. It's about the day the fate of the British cycling team changed in 2003. Uh, they hired a new performance director who allegedly revolutionized their performance. They hadn't won any Gold medals in a long, long time. They were the laughing stock of the Tour de France.

Bridget 44:07

Sounds like England in general.

Laura 44:10

And their new coach Dave Brailsford put them on a new trajectory. He committed them to a strategy that he referred to as the aggregation of marginal gains, which was the philosophy of searching for a tiny margin of improvement in everything you do. So this applied to them, like, you know, getting better bikes, washing their hands more so they don't get sick, having small improvements to their diet, having small improvements to their training, getting better sleep. And James Clear's kind of bastardized this and been like, yeah, just get 1% better at whatever you want to do every day. And I just think that's crazy. Like, what if like 1% better at improving my fiber intake? One, like, what if I was drinking like 1.5 liters a day and I was like, my goal is to drink more water and I want to get 1% better every day. I would die of water toxicity. And obviously, you know, this is what I mean where I'm like, the rule's just a vibe. Like, the vibe is just give it a shot. It doesn't have to be perfect. Just try a little bit. Try a little bit every day. Don't think about the science too much because it doesn't check out.

Bridget 45:20

You could die of water toxicity, or you could if you think like 1%, maybe 1 mil, you know, you could drink like 1 liter, 501 milliliters a day. I don't know which one would be better.

Laura 45:36

Like what if it was like a I want to get a bit better at running every day and then like Forrest Gump, I never stop running.

Bridget 45:42

I thought the one, I don't know which section of the book this was in, but where he said that he knew a guy who wanted to start going to the gym. So he went for only five minutes and left at the five minute mark every time until he thought, you know, well, I'm here, might as well stay. But that is insane. Can you imagine watching someone walk into the gym five minutes? Cecilator, guys, I've done my five minutes, getting dressed, driving to the gym, all of those things for five minutes.

Laura 46:13

It would never work for me. It's socially mortifying.

Bridget 46:17

I could not the thing about going to the gym is it's not being like once you're there, it's fine. It's going. Yeah. If you've gone, it's not like canning down the minutes until I can leave. Because there is no rule about when you can and can't leave. The thing is, in your mind, shit, I gotta go to the gym. It's like actually getting dressed, it's walking out the door, getting your water bottle. That's the problem. It's not the length of time at the gym.

Laura 46:41

And I think this is like a real shortcoming of the book, is that it offers no practical strategies around overcoming that hurdle of motivation or willpower. It's like essentially the message of the book is to have a habit. Just do the habit. Just do it a little bit, and then you'll have the habit because you'll just do it a bit more every day. And while I think there is like truth in there, I think like, you know, there's those stats that I like have absolutely not looked up but seen online about, you know, it takes 30 days to form a habit. You know, even as little as one minute a day is enough to make a habit or whatever like it is.

Bridget 47:19

It is funny though, because that's what I thought we were gonna get in this book. I thought we would get actual, like it does take 30, it not one, but not any point in the book did he say, if you do this for three weeks, then then you're set. You're right to go.

Laura 47:33

And I think this is another aversion I have to self-help books because what actual tangible help can you offer someone when you don't know their individual circumstances? Like, how can you really offer any meaningful advice when you don't really know a person's day-to-day? A lot of these I'm like, yeah, okay. I mean, it makes sense to me, but it wouldn't work because of XYZ.

Bridget 47:56

I have a great example of one that wouldn't work for me. It's when he said to just delete the app from your phone. And look, I've done that many times in the past, and sometimes it works. Often it doesn't because what's stopping me from downloading it again? Yep. I think the one where he asked his assistant to change his password and only give it back to him on the weekends, that would work for me. But unfortunately, I don't have an assistant. And unfortunately I would never do that. I would never have the self-control to ask someone to do that for me.

Laura 48:28

That's the thing. I think the earliest example I have of this is a mind game that my mum used to play with me. She alleges that it worked quite well on her, but basically, when I was talking too much as a kid, she would say, Oh, let's imagine you're a radio and I'm turning you off. I'm turning the volume down, you're getting quieter, quieter.

Bridget 48:49

How quiet can you get?

Laura 48:51

You've been turned off. No more talking now. And apparently it used to work really well on her, and she would just shut up. But for me, what's that? The volume's coming back up. I turn myself back on. Oh my god, I'm a sentient radio. And there's always a loophole. There is a loophole. Yeah. There is a loophole. There is a way of getting around anything if you have enough excuses, if you have the drive to not succeed.

Bridget 49:16

I remember I worked with this girl once. I used to work at Pizza Hut for a very long time when I was at school in uni. And I worked with this girl who was a bit of a crazy gal, and she had gone to the like maybe a doctor or a nutritionist or something, and they told her that she needed to stop having pizza for dinner because it's so easy, you just get a pizza and you take it home and you eat it for dinner. Anyway, so the nutritionist told her limit your pizza intake to two slices a day. So she would make her pizza, put it in the oven, and then just cut it in half, and she would say, This is my two slices of pizza. And like we all knew, she knew that that that's not what the doctor meant. But she was like, It's two slices.

Laura 49:57

What can you do? It's like this joke my grandma has that's like she has a small wooden block and she puts it on the ground, and she's like, My doctor told me I need to exercise more and go for a walk around the block. Yeah, it's always a loophole. I just sort of thought the overall vibe of the book was James Clear, going, Yeah, I read an article, but it was really just a TikTok he watched. I don't think that I learned anything from this book that I haven't already heard before on social media, you know, Instagram wellness pages. And I mean that could be by virtue of the age of this book. It was published in 2018. And it could also be due to the fact that, as James Clear says, like these aren't really his original ideas, they're sort of based around pre-existing concepts.

Bridget 50:47

He says on page nine, what I offer you is a synthesis of the best ideas smart people figured out a long time ago, as well as the most compelling discoveries scientists have made recently. My contribution, I hope, is to find the ideas that matter most and connect them in a way that is highly actionable. Anything wise in these pages, you should credit to the many experts who preceded me. Anything foolish, assume it is my error. This is a bit like our Ali Hazelwood Bride episode, because he's he's got us, not by the plot this time, because there's zero plot because it's I mean non-fiction, but he's got us by that caveat. He's like, Yeah, well, if I get it wrong, sorry, but if it's good, it's also not me. He's been given an assignment and he's undergrad. Yes, and he's published. Were there any tips in this book that you did find genuinely useful? There were a few things that were a little bit thought-provoking for me. And first thing was on page 24. And this is in the surprising power of atomic habits. And it says, if you want better results, then forget about setting goals. Focus on your system instead. What do I mean by this? Are goals completely useless? Of course not. Goals are good for setting a direction, but systems are best for making progress. A handful of problems arise when you spend too much time thinking about your goals and not enough time designing your systems. And I think that is quite practical advice because you know, how many times have we heard set your goals, set your intentions, manifest, all of these things. But if you don't know how to achieve those goals, what's the point? And I've always thought about goals, what's the point? Because I don't know how to do that. Like if I say I want to save $10,000 in the next three months, okay, great, but I'm just gonna keep living my life the way I have been and not save $10,000 in three months. So this is another, yeah, duh moment. Of course, you need a a system or a some direction of how to do that. But I think having it written down is quite good. And then because I feel like this the book is just repeating itself again and again, I sort of found the same theory set again on page 45 where the behavioral scientist Jason Hureja writes, habits are simply reliable solutions to recurring problems in our environment. And following on from that, on page 46, he also said, Habits do not restrict freedom, they create it. In fact, the people who don't have their habits handled are often the ones with the least amount of freedom. And so what I took from that is you have a goal, your system needs to be made up of habits, and the habits are there to avoid obstacles or roadblocks in your journey to achieve that goal, blah, blah, blah. But it also reminded me of something that Zoe Foster Blake said when we went to see her at the end of last year. And she said that she finds routine to be freeing because she's running her business, she's raising her children, she's a writer. She finds that having a routine of going for a run or doing whatever she does in her morning that allows her the freedom to be creative and do all of these other things. And I thought it was funny because she was saying essentially the same thing that's in this book, but I found when she said it to be quite enlightening. It's just very interesting that I was very hesitant to take advice from this man. But when Zoe Foster Blake said it, I was like, yes, routines are freeing.

Laura 54:08

It's funny that you say that because that's exactly what that TikTok I was complaining about minutes ago said. But why did it work for me when Zoe said it? Maybe it's because Zoe Foster Blake didn't publish a book about it. Something that I found surprisingly useful in this book was this concept, and I forget the exact wording that he used, but kind of like picturing the person that you want to identify as and making actions towards being that person. It's something that sounds like really reductive and stupid, and I think that's why I was a bit resistant to hearing it in this book. But it's something that I tell myself all the time. I fall victim to writing these long lists in my notes app that say like yoga, wind chimes, long hair, sunshine in the morning, and it's like a written vision board for what I would like my life to look like or attributes I've seen in other people that I would like to have manifest in myself, but it stays as a list in my phone and it never becomes something that I put into practice. I'm like, I love the idea of drinking green tea, but I don't drink green tea, like, and then I become sad and overwhelmed that my life doesn't look how I want it to look, but I struggle to put those things into action. And so I liked this idea of sort of reframing the way that you set your goals or articulate your goals. And so, like instead of saying I want to run, just saying I am a runner. Or I think the example he used was if you're trying to quit smoking, it might be easier for you to say I'm not a smoker instead of I'm trying to quit. Obviously, it's not always gonna be as simple as that, and there's lots of limitations to putting things like that into practice, but at least over the last few weeks I found it really helpful. Ever since reading The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, I have yearned to be a runner. I was addicted to Blake Lively's character, Bridget, I think her name is. It is, yes. And in the second or third book, she's really going through it. And running is this kind of outlet, as so many people say it is, to just sort of like lose yourself in the source, run it out. And I've always been like, God, wouldn't that be good? Like, I wish that were me, but I've never once made a step for that to be me. And so over holidays, I was like, all right, I'll use some advice from James Clear, even if it's like five minutes, just a little walk around the block, as my grandma may suggest. Um, I will go out and do it. And I found that in the act of fulfilling that little promise to myself, and like in the act of sort of somewhat crafting that vision of what I would like my life to look like, I found a lot of pride and satisfaction. So I think that was useful for me.

Bridget 56:56

I think it's just how it's packaged. Like it's all, I think genuinely it is all good advice. I'm just like quite resistant to the form in which it's packaged.

Laura 57:07

But overwhelmingly, I think this has no negative impact on society. I think it's good advice, it's practical advice to a degree. Our own biases at play.

Bridget 57:17

The one thing I thought when I was reading this section about changing your identity, and I did really think it was good advice as well, was in some ways, I feel like the feminine version of this is romanticizing your life. I love the concept of romanticizing your life, make it interesting and make it romantic and you know, light a candle after you finish vacuuming and all of these things. And I feel like that is the same thing as the two-step process to changing your identity. You're trying to live the life as if it's a Nancy Myers movie. And I think that is you're you're changing your identity, you're doing the same thing. So once again, I like how it's packaged as romanticizing your life, but it is the same concept in many ways.

Laura 57:57

Yeah, well, I guess that kind of ties into craving, make it attractive, and reward, make it satisfying. Yeah. Give yourself a little treat. Some of the advice is so dumb though. Like the one before we started recording, you were talking about if you want to read more, just put your book on your pillow. And you were like, but I would just move it. One was like, if you want to drink more water, put three bottles of water around your house in obvious locations. Like, I would just ignore them. Plus, they're not ice cold.

Bridget 58:32

I'm not interested. One thing that I thought was really funny. I found myself laughing out loud at this instruction on page 66. And once again, at its core, I don't think it's bad advice. I just think it was hysterical the way that it appeared to me on the page. And it was after he was talking about creating a habits scorecard. He's talking about writing down everything you do from the moment you wake up, you know, just your morning routine, and then you sort of judge yourself and give yourself a positive, a negative, or you know, neutral. And I think for me, I'd I'd lie. I'd be like, well, well, I don't want to say that I check my phone for half an hour before I get out of bed. So I'm not even, you know, I wouldn't even be honest with myself. But anyway, that's beside the point. So he's talking about, you know, observing your morning routine and just doing what you normally do and just observing it, you know, just being like a passive observer of your own morning routine. And he says, if you eat a chocolate bar every morning, acknowledge it. Almost as if you're watching someone else. Oh, how interesting that they would do such a thing.

Laura 59:42

It just was so funny. He did have a lot of language like that. Like again, I think he was like chocolate bar shaming, and it was like, you ate a whole chocolate bar. Huh. You ate way more calories than you originally planned to. So much, like, there is so little nuance left around like diet and wellness culture and his stance on it. It's like, good habit, weigh yourself in the morning. Good habit, track your calories.

Bridget 1:00:12

If you want to cut back on your junk food habit, but notice yourself grabbing another cookie, say out loud, I'm about to eat this cookie, but I don't need it. Eating it will cause me to gain weight and hurt my health.

Laura 1:00:24

Oh god.

Bridget 1:00:27

I think it's so funny. I I like for me, it would be oh, how interesting that you just spent 45 minutes playing the same game on your phone. Continue. Weird choice.

Laura 1:00:39

Yeah, the habit tracker was something that was um I did give that a little bit of a crack and it was really bleak. I found it so easy to identify bad habits and things that I want to improve. And I think a perspective this book gave me was that you likely already do have good habits, but they've become a part of your routine, which is why you can't really acknowledge them.

Bridget 1:01:03

I found it hard as well because like currently I'm on six weeks of holidays. And when I'm on holidays, I'm living my best life. You know, I wake up, I drink a lot of water, I brush my teeth, I go outside, I sit in the sun, I have a lovely breakfast, I go to the gym, I go for a walk. That will change when I go back to work. I won't be doing those things. I will be dragging myself out of bed at the last possible minute, not wanting to go start my day. So at the moment, very positive. But in a few weeks' time, it won't be. So maybe I need to be listening to this as I sleep, sort of like sink to my subconscious.

Laura 1:01:40

He did have some really stupid anecdotes in this book, though. Did you have a favorite?

Bridget 1:01:45

No, I don't. I was gonna say that I don't think I connected with any of them.

Laura 1:01:50

No, they were all so dumb. And his takes on them were so lukewarm. And every single anecdote, I was like, all right, I'll Google that. I'm yet to Google any of them, but I doubt they're true.

Bridget 1:02:02

They really all just sort of swirled into one like a a chess playing cycling team who got hit in the face with a baseball, something like that.

Laura 1:02:14

Oh my god. Well, I listened to an episode of Books Could Kill a podcast, which I think really perfectly articulated and provided more context for some of the issues that I had with this book. One that I was really intrigued to hear about was the hand soap story. In chapter 15, the cardinal rule of behavior change, one of the anecdotes that he tells is about a public health worker named Stephen Luby, who in the late 1990s bought a one-way ticket to Karachi, Pakistan. So Pakistan at this point in time was one of the most popular cities in the world, but also one of the least livable cities in the world. Over 60% of the residents lived in squatter settlements and slums, high-density living, low-quality housing, limited access to systems like waste removal, electricity, clean water, living in poverty, which led to widespread illness and disease. Enter James's anecdote. So Stephen Luby makes his way to Pakistan, and they had the brainwave that washing hands could make a real difference. So they partnered with Proctor and Gamble to arm the citizens of Karachi with safeguard soap compared to a standard bar of soap. They seem to find this to be a more enjoyable experience. And I think this seems to take the focus of the story because my takeaway was that the soap was so nice, they simply couldn't resist using it, and they were healed.

Bridget 1:03:42

I think it's wild that he's talking about this. Like, this is a big, big problem. Like human rights are being violated, left, right, and centre. And he's like, Procter and Gamble, they saw a gap in the market and they filled it. They were able to make profit.

Laura 1:04:01

Amazing. And so one of the hosts of If Books Could Kill actually reached out to Stephen Luby for more context because in the study, apparently, like the aroma and lather of the soap, which were apparently some of the key factors in sort of making this successful, they weren't even mentioned in the study. And so he said sort of like anecdotally, yes, they did discuss that that had had an impact. But something else that's not really discussed in this anecdote in Atomic Habits is that they had sort of like control teams go out and like educate the citizens and check in on them on like a weekly basis, saying, like, how's hand washing going for you? How are you feeling? So there was obviously like a lot more access to resources, a lot more education. And it's just sort of one of these carelessly told anecdotes where again I was kind of like, love the vibe, but uh this is kind of in one ear, out the other ear, James. I'm not too sure about this.

Bridget 1:05:03

It is so funny because if I was Stephen Luby, obviously this is something he's very passionate about. You know, he's trying to improve the health of these people. And if my hard work was reduced to bought a one-way ticket to Pakistan, got a soap company on board, gave it to him, checked out, checked back in in a few years' time, they were still using it, cool. I would be so annoyed. Because imagine all the planning, imagine everything that he's had to do, the study, the research, everything, blah, blah, blah, to be able to do this. And it's just like, yeah, this guy just wedded and gave him some soap. That's that's the whole story.

Laura 1:05:42

He's a full on epidemiologist.

Bridget 1:05:46

And I think also think it's so funny because he then goes on to talk about chewing gum, about how Wrigley's was like, hey, why is no one buying our chewing gum? I've got an idea. Let's make it yummy yes. And so he's that he's like, Yay, good job, Wrigley's. He talks about toothpaste and how his wife even changed from Sensodyne because she didn't like the aftertaste. And you know, good job, Colgate, and all those other companies for adding flavour. I guess if it was published now, it'd be good job highsmile for making like blueberry cupcake, muffin, whatever. He's just so pro-capitalism, like pro-getting a buck by exploiting weaknesses in people. Like along with High Smile, if this was published in 2025, he would be saying, rates of cigarette smoking were dropping off because the young people were now educated about the harmful effects of nicotine. How can we suck them back in? I know, make it electric, make it rechargeable, and give it good flavors. Like vaping is king. And he would be like, Yay, go vaping. Go big vapes. You're so right.

Laura 1:06:58

Oh, it's so dumb. He got kind of crazy towards the end.

Bridget 1:07:02

Like he put in a poem, he put in like I think he had a word count he had to reach, and he was just like, I'm gonna say shit, and no one can stop me.

Laura 1:07:12

And the diagrams were so like like pretty much every graph was like start point failure, end point success. And it was just like a straight trajectory up sometimes. Slay, if you keep trying, you'll do better.

Bridget 1:07:29

Sometimes it would have like a few little squiggles in it just to make it at least a little bit distinguishable from all the others.

Laura 1:07:38

Oh, he gave no airtime but any like setbacks or like like one was like you might break your leg, but you'll come back stronger than ever.

Bridget 1:07:48

You know why? He couldn't he didn't have time to think about that because he had to think of all of his metaphors. You know, you're a potato in boiling water. No, you're not. You're an egg in boiling water, you're a tree, you're you're an animal roaming the plains of Africa. Yes.

Laura 1:08:05

And I think he's like really run out of steam for like his different theories and concepts because at the end, when he told that story about the guy making sales calls, and he was like had a container of paperclips, and each call he made, he put a paperclip in another container. And then he was like, I call it the paperclip theory. My favorite anecdote was where the president had to kill someone. Which I think is a good idea. I was so on poor with it. This is like I was reading this in peak Luigi Mancioni era. So I was like, Yes, the president should kill someone. Blood on his hands, blood on his head. Well, I guess for this episode, we won't really be listing our favourite character. But Bridget, if you had to give Atomic Habits by James Clear a rating of lit or shit, what would you say?

Bridget 1:08:58

This is a hard one because I don't really feel strongly either way. I think that if you are someone who has found something helpful from this book, then I'm really happy for you. That did sound a bit sarcastic, but that was full sincerity. For me, I don't think I've retained anything. I don't think it gave me any like really true light bulb moments. And for that, I think I have to say shit. I'm happy for other people to really enjoy it.

Laura 1:09:27

Yeah, I think I feel almost exactly the same. I'm hesitant to say shit on the basis that there were moments where I found myself enjoying the optimistic just give it a crack kind of tone that it had. But same as you. In one ear, out the other. It could have been a blog post, it could have been a listicle. I forgot it almost as soon as I read it. We said to each other so many times, thank God, for the chapter summaries. The chapter summaries are all this book had to be.

Bridget 1:09:55

I think I'm gonna rate it shit. If a girl had access to Canva in an Instagram account, I think this information would be like just the same. I don't think writing 300 or so pages about it adds any value. I think it could easily just be a an Instagram infographic.

Laura 1:10:13

I would love, and I mean this with full sincerity, but I would love to meet somebody whose life has genuinely been changed by reading this book because I am really interested to know what kind of person this would resonate with and like what type of personality reads a message in this that like sticks with them. Because for me it was like all same same. Nothing was really that new. And there were points where I was like, yeah, that's pretty helpful. I like that way of looking at it, but it didn't change my life, that's for sure.

Bridget 1:10:41

I think honestly, there might just be a block in my brain. Don't tell me what to do. And that brings our episode to a close. If you have New Year's aspirations of starting a parasocial relationship with two recovering book snobs, then you're in the right place. Your atomic habits start now. Have your say on what we read next by keeping an eye on the link in our show notes and on our socials. Make sure you subscribe to the show, and if you want to be on the same page as us, follow us at talklit.gethit on Instagram and TikTok. Crazy Rain.