are we getting dumber about books? (booktok vs literature) - bonus chapter: anti-intellectualism

welcome to our latest talk lit, get hit bonus chapter! in this episode we attempt to disentangle our thoughts and feelings on the supposed rise of anti-intellectualism in the literary world. we discuss the modern manifestations of this ancient concept -  trope titles, simplistic narratives, audiobooks vs physical books, social media echo chamber driven publishing and a resistance to critical thinking. we discuss the ever-present question - can reading ever, truly be “not political” and what can we do to change our reading and consumption habits?

mentioned in this episode:

@andrearaereads - https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSrRd8A6P/
@bookishwithb - https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSrRenYcr/
@flexmami - https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSrRecUm3/
Australia Reads Survey
Tolkien on TikTok

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Transcript

Bridget 0:00

Here he comes. Here to fuck shit up again, aren't you? Tried to cage me. Hello and welcome to a Talk Lit Get Hit bonus chapter. The little book chats in between the big ones. We'll talk about reading, authors, and have discussions with people who, like us, can't shut up about books.

Laura 0:16

We might get sidetracked and talk about literally anything else, but this is a bonus chapter we wrote just for you. For our bonus chapter this month, we're trying out something new. We'll be putting on our big brain thinking caps and chatting about the alleged rise of anti-intellectualism in the literary world. Once again, you're joined by talklet get hit hosts Bridget and Laura. Hi, Bridget.

Bridget 0:38

Hi Laura. Book talk versus literature talk. It's been a hot topic of conversation on the internet in recent years. However, the roots of this theory go much further back.

Laura 0:48

Anti-intellectualism refers to the disdain and suspicion towards intellect, intellectuals, and intellectual pursuits. It is often expressed through the devaluation of education and philosophy, as well as a rejection of art, literature, history, and science, which can often be seen as impractical, politically biased, or even worthy of contempt.

Bridget 1:09

While the term anti-intellectualism itself predates historian and intellectual Richard Hofstader, it was his 1963 book Anti-Intellectualism in American Life that popularized and defined the concept, making him a key figure in its analysis and understanding.

Laura 1:25

At the risk of sounding like a grade 10 Source assignment, Hofstader's three types of anti-intellectualism were religious anti-intellectualism, populist anti-elitism, and unreflective instrumentalism. All three types of anti-intellectualism maintain a dismissal, suspicion, and disregard for any sort of intellectual pursuit. So while certainly not a new conversation, it is definitely a conversation I have seen happening increasingly on TikTok in particular. When I went hunting through TikTok to try and find its recent origins, I stumbled across a TikTok from Bookish with B or Celine. In this TikTok, which we'll link in our show notes, Celine talks about the oversimplification of books, i.e., reducing a whole book to a single trope, and the lack of diversity in book recommendations as a result of creators and publishers continuing to feed this system. I mean, predictably the responses and reactions to this video were plentiful and varied. And so we wanted to take the time to share our own two cents on what we believe to be a very important conversation.

Bridget 2:33

Before we get too stuck into this, we want to make it clear that this conversation is not to detract from the positives of book talk. Many of these concepts and ideas are things that we are learning alongside you. And although we joke about it all the time, we never want to yuck someone else's yum.

Laura 2:48

Yeah, I think it would be particularly rich of us to try to tear down book talk when probably one of the main reasons we actually started a podcast was because of book talk, because I don't know where else I would have been getting recommendations for those books and wanting to talk about them, if not from that pocket of the internet.

Bridget 3:05

I think something else that we need to keep in mind is that trends are cyclical. I remember conversations about reading and anti-intellectualism, maybe not using that exact phrase, but they were happening when Twilight became popular, they were happening when Kindles became popular, when Fifty Shades became popular. Now it's thrown around with the likes of Akata, Fourth Wing, Colleen Hoover. And another thing that we need to remember is once again, these are books and hobbies primarily enjoyed by women.

Laura 3:35

Ding ding ding. Just coming back to some of the positives of BookTalk, and I came across an article from Australia Reads published in November 2023 that states: as of 2023, the book talk hashtag is reported to have over 107 billion views globally, and is particularly popular with Gen Z users born between 1996 and 2010. Key findings of the report, which is based on a consumer research poll of 2001 16 to 25 year olds in the UK, include almost two-thirds of 16 to 25 year olds say that book talk or book influences have helped them discover a passion for reading. Over half turned to book talk for recommendations. 68% say that BookTalk has inspired them to read a book that they would never have considered otherwise. Nearly one in five say that following the book talk hashtag helped them find a community, and another 16% reported that they had made new friends through BookTalk. Lastly, nearly half of respondents reported visiting a physical bookshop to buy a book they have seen on BookTalk. So I know it's just one study, but I think these stats really display the way that BookTok is so influential and really helps crafting this sense of community between readers, which is really what it's all about. It sounds insincere, but I mean it with my whole heart. Can you think of any ways that this sort of sense of anti-intellectualism might have manifested in your own reading experiences?

Bridget 5:03

I can think of a few ways. One of them is actually related to my 2025 Ins and Outs. I was very stressed about the division of the format of the books that I read. So I feel like I should be reading physical books more than e-books and audiobooks. And I think that stems from this want to be perceived as a reader, as an intellectual, and there are always people talking about physical books versus audiobooks versus e-books. I remember in high school when e-readers started to become really popular, and there was always like debate about nothing can touch a real book. You can't sniff a Kindle. Those sorts of jokes. And I think maybe they have worked their way into my brain because I feel more smug when I'm reading a physical book.

Laura 5:53

That's exactly what I was thinking. I was just about to say I cannot count the amount of times I've virtually signalled by taking a book out in public and not even cracking it open one time.

Bridget 6:05

It's performative reading, but I I do read, but at the same time, it is performative reading. And nothing more I love than an Instagram story with a book visible.

Laura 6:15

Yeah, I love to be seen reading. Yes. I also love reading, but boy do I love to be seen reading.

Bridget 6:21

I think another way this fear of being perceived as an anti-intellectual has manifested in my life is worrying about reading fiction and non-fiction books. And if I'm being honest, again, when I feel most smug, it's when I have just finished reading a nonfiction book. Even if it's so boring.

Laura 6:45

Yeah, I feel exactly the same. Yeah, just a non-fiction book I was reading the other day. Yeah, just a work of literature I was reading the other day.

Bridget 6:54

And then I think the last thing is I feel guilty about reading books that I perceive are time wasters or not serious books. I think, oh, I could be ticking off classic books, or I could be ticking off world-renowned pieces of art that have won this prize and they've won this prize. And often when I read those books, I don't really enjoy them that much anyway. It's like I know all these things in my head, but at the same time, I'm not listening to myself.

Laura 7:19

I think a little bit in the inverse to that, I have often a very strong reaction whenever I see any criticism of a work or an author that I really enjoy. So not strictly related to books, but I know that often my first response will be, just can't I have anything nice. Like, oh, why do you have to ruin everything by like thinking and finding out stuff and like trying to tear down the things that I love? For example, I know when I read A Little Life, my first response was that was a lot, but my God, I loved it. And while I still maintain that that book was incredibly moving and fantastically written, and I loved it at that point in time, things have come to me about Hanya Yanagahara and about some of her other work that has changed the way that I view that book. It doesn't really change how I felt about it at the time, it doesn't really change what it meant, but that's something that I've taken on board and that has influenced further reading. I will say it took me quite a few years to get on board with that as well. I was pretty eager to reject any sort of forward motion there.

Bridget 8:25

I think that knee-jerk reaction is something that is often seen in the comment sections of videos when they're talking about anti-intellectualism. I often see people saying things like, Can't we have anything? Can't we just read because it's fun? Once again, bringing up the conversation about reading being or not being political. This is another thing that people say, can't we just read without thinking about it?

Laura 8:49

Yeah, that unwillingness to dissect something you enjoy is I think a very fair response and it is really, really relatable. And I sort of feel like in a world where so much is bad and hard and sad, when you have something that is bringing you joy, it's a real kick in the guts to have someone say, No, you actually can't enjoy it because it's bad. We've collectively agreed this thing is bad or this person is cancelled or whatever it may be. So I I understand that response. I did watch a video from a TikToker named Andrea Ray Reads, and I'll chuck this video in the show notes, but she made an amazing point where she said that people seem to genuinely resent being reminded they are political actors in their own right. And I wholeheartedly agree with this because I think even on a base level, for a long time in my younger years, I was of the opinion, oh I'm just not into politics. I'm not political. I don't, I don't care either way. And it took me a long time to realize that my ability to feel like I was neutral or apolitical was indirectly a political comment or statement in its own way.

Bridget 10:04

I have conversations with people about this quite often, and I hear things like, oh, it doesn't bother me, it doesn't affect me, I can't be bothered, I'm just gonna do a donkey vote. What's the point? Hopefully, eventually, those people will come to realize that everything is political and nothing exists in isolation. And just because you don't want to engage with it or it doesn't affect you right now, that doesn't mean that it's not true and it's not happening and it doesn't matter. I feel that those of us who are in a position where our rights aren't actively being taken away, then it's of responsibility for us to support people whose rights are being taken away.

Laura 10:42

It can be really difficult to understand sort of like the immediacy of these issues that are playing out in books or understand how they align with events that are taking place currently. So often we have the line of, oh, but it's just fiction or it's made up or it's not that serious. It's kind of like thinking about beauty and diet culture in the 90s and what tabloids and media organizations were pushing out into the world. That may not have been our messaging. We maybe weren't directly consuming it. Maybe we didn't feel like we were taking it in, but we were. We were absorbing it. And over time, those messages about losing five pounds, getting rid of cellulite, and Ashley Simpson and Jessica Simpson being the fattest person in the world were being absorbed by us. And I know that's a really reductive example, but no matter the scale, these messages are all things that go out into the world, and they're all things that are perpetuated by our consumption of them. So I think it's important to dissect them as best we can. I watched another really amazing TikTok from Flex Mummy, who made a really great point that I have not really thought about before, and it was this idea that we have an assumption that information will just come to us when we need to know it. Because she was talking about how, for so many people, the last time any of us learned anything was when we were in school, when our teachers were instructing us, when we were in uni, or maybe even for some people when our parents were telling us like how the world was. And so many of us aren't really used to this independent quest to find out more. And even then when we were in school or whatever it may be, that information was just packaged up and presented to us as a one and done kind of deal. I'm not always, but I can't really think of many times throughout my schooling career where I was asked to analyze the information I was receiving. And I think that's such a great point because it is an exhausting and at times uncomfortable quest to find out more.

Bridget 12:43

I often see discussions of anti-intellectualism on videos and in comment sections where the creators and commenters are discussing the popularity of so-called simplistic narratives. We have found even through doing the podcast that books with straightforward, less challenging narratives often dominate the bestseller lists, which leads to the majority of people reading those books. A few that come to mind are The Housemaid by Frieda McFadden, Fifty Shades of Grey by E. L. James, and though I hate to say it, Twilight by Stephanie Meyer.

Laura 13:18

And it's a real bummer because I think when it comes to doing the podcast, and you know, without a shadow of doubt, you are going to be reading at least one book per month. If that's the baseline, you want those books to at least be different. But when you're sorting through those lists, so many of them are just so much the same.

Bridget 13:38

And also our analytics from the podcast, our most popular episodes are Twilight, Icebreaker, Fifty Shades of Grey. I think part of me dismissing this is like leftover from my years in high school of being not like other girls. And thinking like I can't be seen liking things that other people enjoy. But at the same time, they just are kind of bad. I would say the main thing in the publishing industry that really grinds my gears is the use of what we have coined trope titles.

Laura 14:14

I mean, other people might be calling them that. Oh, yeah. We did Google it and we we weren't really getting anything meaningful. So just a little disclaimer there. No, we made it up.

Bridget 14:25

There's nothing that turns me off a book more than when I see after the title a quick little sentence that tells me it's a swoonworthy enemies to lovers, friends with benefits, found family romp. I hate it. I think it's reductive of the art that the author has made. I think it's a spoiler for what's going to happen in the book. And I think it is quite condescending to me as a reader.

Laura 14:51

I agree. I mean, it even kind of pisses me off sometimes when I see books and it's like insert title for fans of Sally Rooney, Meg Mason, and Genevieve Novak. And it's like, Don't insult me. I'll draw my own conclusions, thank you. Don't tell me what to like. It's like those frickin' shirts that have the buttons halfway up. Like, don't tell me how to roll my sleeves. I think I know. I mean, obviously, I understand why it happens. Algorithms, SEO, marketing purposes, you gotta follow your nose, go where the money is. Blah, blah, blah. But like, come on. I mean, it's just such a narrow way of viewing something that somebody has invested a lot of time and energy into doing. I don't know if that makes me sound like one of those people that are like, I just cry when I see old people on their own. But one that I see people popping off about in particular is the Poppy War. I haven't read this, have you?

Bridget 15:46

No, I haven't.

Laura 15:47

Uh well, I've just done a quick search on Wikipedia, as I so often do. It's nothing but the best research on this podcast. Only the best. And so, I mean, I do know that this is a book by R. F. Quang, who wrote Babel and Yellowface. Wikipedia describes it as a grim dark fantasy that draws plot points and politics from mid-20th century China, with the conflict in the novel based on the second Sino-Japanese war and an atmosphere inspired by the Song dynasty. Even when I get my stupid little Google AI summary for the Poppy War trope, I get things like Hero's Journey, War and Trauma, Addiction and Power, East Asian inspiration, moral ambiguity. But BookTok has decided to promote this as an enemies to lover's romance.

Bridget 16:35

I saw a post on Tumblr by South Far Thing, who said, I'm imagining if Tolkien lived now, and publishers were asking him if he had enough followers on Twitter, and if he could film videos to market his found family, elf core, magic cottage vibes, world-building fantasy book on TikTok. I think he would run them over with his car, actually.

Laura 16:58

It's really absurd when you stop to think about it. I won't pretend like I know the first thing about the publishing industry, but it does seem like what we're seeing is just this extreme market-driven publishing where we have this kind of ripple effect, like the publishing industry has joined hands with social media, and social media is pushing forward these tropes, these sort of like easy-to-read books, making these kind of reductive assertions about them. And then the publishing industry is like, oh my God, okay, this is what they like, we'll do more. Thinking once again about what we were saying earlier in terms of when we're picking podcast books, we're picking from these like top 100 goodreads lists, what we're seeing again and again is that these are books written by straight white women featuring straight white women in heterosexual relationships, very often living in America. And I think that real lack of diversity that you see on these lists is reflective of the echo chamber that book talk has the potential to create.

Bridget 18:00

A complaint I see time and time again about book talk is that there is a lack of diversity with the books that are reviewed, the books that are recommended. And while I think that can be true, I also think that it is true that you are in charge of your own algorithm. If what you engage with is the same books by the same authors about the same things, then I think there's nobody that can change your experience of book talk but you. I mean, I don't know how they work, but from what I know, what you watch, what you engage with, and what you stay watching is what will be recommended to you. So if you are interested in diversifying your book talk, then I think the first step is to diversify your searches, diversify the creators that you follow, and diversify the videos that you engage with.

Laura 18:52

And it could be a matter of having a little bit of reflection about other things that you've enjoyed about books you've already read. For example, it took me a long time to figure out that what I was enjoying about so many of these seemingly random books was that they were an intergenerational family saga. And I didn't really have the vocabulary for that until I started, you know, searching books like Insert Title and getting all of these recommendations that were seemingly not connected, only to find that this was a trope that I enjoyed. So it's not to say that tropes are explicitly bad because they can be used in a multitude of different ways, but I think when a work is reduced only to its tropes, that's when it starts to sort of lose any meaning. I think one of the best things about reading for me is having the potential to challenge my understanding of the world or look outside of my own perspective. And it's not to say that there's absolutely nothing to be gained from reading books by someone about someone from a similar walk of life to you because everybody is different. But I think that's just one of the simplest pleasures in the world, and I really would encourage everybody to have a crack at finding something that opens their eyes in that kind of way. We've kind of segued into talking about diverse literature, but I think when we're talking about anti-intellectualism, that is a part of the solution. It's part of the way that we challenge it. Are there any other ways you can kind of think of combating this?

Bridget 20:27

I think that libraries and librarians are a great resource in this fight against anti-intellectualism. And I'm not just saying that to suck up to you because you're a librarian, but I think that librarians in public libraries, in school libraries are a resource that needs to be used. It provides accessible books to people who may not have the means to purchase books, and it also gives you recommendations that you might not find inside of your echo chamber that we were talking about before. I also think the act of being in a book club, listening to a book podcast, engaging with book talk and booktube and bookstagram content is actually engaging with literature in a higher way. I think when you're thinking about what you're reading, you're analyzing what you're reading, talking about your reading is a great way to take further meaning from what you're reading. I know that when we are reading for the podcast, we read books in a different way. I notice things that I wouldn't normally notice if I was just reading purely for my own enjoyment. And so I think that active analysis, even though it might seem silly to think about analysis in terms of creating a two-minute TikTok, I think that that is engaging with the literature in a higher order way.

Laura 21:41

Yeah, I think a really basic example of that that I always see people joking about is checking the Goodreads reviews and kind of tying into something that I was talking about earlier. But if you're having a difference of opinion or if you're seeing something you don't understand, maybe taking a moment to try to figure out why. And if you're feeling uncomfortable about, I don't know, accusations leveled against the content or the author, maybe taking some time to sort of sit with that discomfort or do a little bit of further research because listening to the thoughts and opinions of other readers has been really important in my sort of development as a reader. I can't count the amount of times where you've said something about a book and I've thought, huh, I have never thought of it from that point of view. I think it really helps to breed empathy. You often have a much more empathetic outlook on characters, unless they're children, than I do.

Bridget 22:39

I think that when you start going down this rabbit hole and thinking about ant intellectualism, I think it's really easy to become despondent about the way of the world or the way of the publishing companies, but I found this really interesting comment from somebody on Reddit, Il Conversation 853. And they said in a thread about ant intellectualism, here's my take. There will always be people who are intellectually inclined, highly motivated overachievers. And those people are not that way because they were deprived of other things that brought them joy. The drive for success and the accomplishments are what bring them joy. We can't stop them. We couldn't have stopped Einstein, Darwin, Jobs, or anyone else who contributed to intellectual progress in society, and we aren't going to stop the intellectuals of the future. In the same way that we can't stop them, we also can't force intellectual curiosity onto those who derive pleasure through other means. Kobe Bryant didn't solve climate change, but he was a genius on the basketball court. The kid who is addicted to video games might end up solving cyber crimes for the CIA. The reader who prefers romance and fantasy might be a social worker helping people suffering through some of the worst imaginable circumstances, who just wants to forget about how bad things can be so she can keep doing it day after day. And I think that's quite a hopeful sentiment that even though some people might read what I perceive to be a dumb book, that doesn't mean that they're a bad person.

Laura 24:00

That is, you know, it's good to note.

Bridget 24:02

It is good to note. And as I said in one of the episodes, I sometimes struggle when people have a different opinion to me. I think, how is that even possible? That you don't understand what I mean and I don't understand what you mean, but I think it's always good to remind ourselves that any reading is good reading, and a good book is a book that you enjoy.

Laura 24:23

I mean, I think it would be extremely rich of us to say, diversify your worldview, explore other perspectives, and then in the same breath to say, but your perspective on reading is wrong. Yeah. And yet here we are. Like we said at the start of the episode, um, we're very hopeful that this won't come off as preachy or holier than thou. This is a bit of a journey that we're on too, and we really enjoy having these kinds of conversations. And we love having them with you. So if you have anything that you'd like to add to what we've already said or anything that you think we've got wrong, we would love to hear from you. There are so many ways you can get in contact with us. You can DM us on Instagram, our emails in our bio. Depending where you're streaming, you can even comment on the episode. So don't be a stranger.

Bridget 25:16

Thank you for reading between the dumb lines with us. Next episode, we are reading Bridget Jones's Diary by Helen Fielding. Have your say on what we read next by keeping an eye on the link in our show notes and on our socials. Make sure you subscribe to the show, and if you want to be on the same page as us, follow us at talklit.gethit on Instagram and TikTok.