babel by r. f. kuang

grab your plaid blazers, light a candle, and cue the rainymood.com soundtrack - we’re diving headfirst into the moody, mesmerising world of Babel by R. F. Kuang. in this episode, we explore the rich layers of dark academia (think crumpled parchment and candle-lit libraries) while unpacking the novel’s powerful themes of colonialism, racism, language and resistance. we’ll also talk about found friendship, complain endlessly about the reviews and hot takes we read, and try to articulate why this book left us feeling like we'd lived through something colossal. 

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Transcript

Laura 0:01

Hello and welcome to Talk Lit Get Hit, a podcast where we read viral books the internet won't shut up about and rate them lit or shit.

Bridget 0:09

We're your hosts Bridget and Laura, lovers of sad girl fiction and tragic endings, fearers of smart, urban fantasy, and the Who Did This To You trope. Join us as we pick apart all the books the internet loves and embark on a journey to figure out why.

Laura 0:27

Grab your lipstick stained glasses and leather-bound tomes, because this episode we're digging into a literary theme that has dominated our Pinterest boards for years. We're determined to leave no crumpled piece of parchment unturned. So this month we're reading a key text in the modern dark academia lexicon, Babel by R. F. Kuang. It promises to be a novel about the power of language, the violence of colonialism, and the sacrifices of resistance, but as ever, we'll be the judges of that. Bridget, hello, hello. Hello, hello. How are you going? I'm feeling very darkly academic right now. I know, so academic. Oh, so dark, so academic. I mean, it is the perfect day to be recording this episode. It's rainy, it's cold, we've got a fire lit, got a candle lit.

Bridget 1:14

We had a cup of tea. Yes, we did. We're surrounded by books. We are surrounded by books and cats. Cats. Some of them have gilded edges.

Laura 1:23

We're both kind of dressed appropriately too. I'm wearing my tiniest glasses.

Bridget 1:27

Yes, I'm wearing my biggest and only glasses.

Laura 1:33

On that note, I was thinking maybe this month we could skip the catch-up and we could have a little bit of a chat about dark academia instead. Would you say that you're very well versed in the dark academia genre?

Bridget 1:44

I would say disappointingly, no, I'm not very well versed. I was recently listening to our If We Were Villains podcast episode, and in that I said, I don't know much about dark academia, but I would really love to read more books. I don't think I've read a single one since. I mean, books, no, Pinterest, aesthetic, yes, heavy, into the dark academia vibes for decor, wardrobe, all of the things.

Laura 2:11

It is a lifestyle. I do have a definition. Dark academia is a literary aesthetic and subculture focused on higher education, the arts and literature, often idealizing the atmosphere of elite academic institutions. It features elements such as gothic architecture, rainy weather, old libraries, and classic clothing styles like tweed blazers and Argyle sweaters. Originating on platforms like Tumblr, it encompasses a deep appreciation for classical literature and art, drawing inspiration from gothic and romantic movements. We know all about Tumblr. I think that resonates very, very deeply with me. Um I was thinking maybe we'll have to put together a carousel of our most dark academia-leaning reblogs from Tumblr circa 2010. Yes. Oh, that would be a lovely trip down memory lane. I just feel like I was always reblogging photos of like, um, I don't know, like old-fashioned light bulbs glowing and bookshelves and crumpled bed sheets and mixed. Stacks of books.

Bridget 3:15

Oh my goodness. Like the reflection of a candle or a lamp in the window with rain outside. Oh my goodness. Stunning fireplaces. Now that I have a fire in my house, I'm very happy, but I used to watch fireplace videos on loop on YouTube. Oh, that's cozy. And also have to mention the thing that got us through high school, Rainymood.com. Oh, special shout out. Lovely website, lovely app where you play a little rain. You can sort of customize it a little bit.

Laura 3:45

And they also have a song of the day. I think that might be where I first heard Billy Holiday. Or maybe on Tumblr, but it was I'll Be Seeing You and Rainymove.com. It was unmatched. Yeah.

Bridget 3:56

I remember that song from um Amelie.

Laura 4:00

Oh, didn't I haven't watched that movie in so long, but I was just talking about it yesterday.

Bridget 4:06

Oh, we should watch it.

Laura 4:07

Yeah. Amazing.

Bridget 4:09

Can't even remember it, but I made it my whole personality.

Laura 4:14

I think for me, dark academia is maybe less a set genre and more so anything that helps me regress to that kind of tumbler state of mind. But I think some that I've read that definitely fall within this genre are The Secret History by Donna Tart, which is probably like the number one big mama of dark academia. Obviously, also If we were villains, which we talked about on the podcast. Picture of Dorian Gray and Frankenstein. I feel like both fall into this genre, but I think I read them when I was probably too young to really understand them or get too much from them. Bunny pops up on a lot of these lists. Um, The Maidens by Alex McAlades and A Little Life by Hanya Yanagahara. I don't know if that strictly falls into this category, but I it comes up on lists sometimes, so I'm gonna let it be in there. And apart from that, like not really too much. There are a bunch that pop up on popular lists that I just don't really have any interest in reading. So things like Ninth House, The Atlas Six, A Deadly Education, The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue. I just generally don't enjoy magical realism, and saying that I will admit that Babel obviously falls somewhat into magical realism. So maybe I could challenge my opinions here, but I'm still not that interested.

Bridget 5:34

I've read a few of the same ones as you. I've read The Picture of Dorian Grey, Frankenstein, but same as you, was probably too young to really remember them. I think I would have been about 17 or 18 when I read The Picture of Dorian Grey. I think I have reread Frankenstein more recently, but I've already forgotten it if I'm being honest. So maybe it's time for a reread of that one too. Obviously, if we were villains, Bunny, and I have read one other one that I have seen popping up on lists, which is Piranesi. Piranesi, not quite sure how to say it, by Susanna Clark. And I have to say, I found that book to be so deeply boring.

Laura 6:14

So inspiring.

Bridget 6:16

Sorry guys. Yeah, I wouldn't be re-blogging that one. I like the cover though. It's a good cover.

Laura 6:21

It is a really, really nice cover. Well, with seeds of boredom already planted in our minds. Maybe we could kick off discussing our initial thoughts, expectations, hopes, and dreams for Babel by R. F. Kuang. Bridget, I know this has been on your list. It's one of the books that you've sort of been saving for the right moment, the right time, whenever that may be. How were you thinking you'd enjoy this book?

Bridget 6:43

I was like 99% sure that I would enjoy Babel. As we spoke about in our Yellowface episode, you and I have both mythologized RF Kwang to an amazing extent. I hadn't read any. I think you'd read one book, but we are both so sure she's the smartest person in the world, the most interesting person in the world. And so I was on one hand thinking, I can't wait to read this, the other hand, I was thinking, am I smart enough to read this?

Laura 7:09

Yeah, I was feeling really similarly. I was so excited to finally read it. I've said it so many times, I think, on the podcast, but I'm still always chasing something that fills that a secret history-shaped hole. And this comes up very often as like a close second to the ultimate dark academia book. So on that front, I was excited. Also, having just recently read Yellowface and talking about RF Kwang's work and sort of like her perspective on writing and all the smart, smart things that she has to say. I was likewise really excited to read this, but also a bit nervous. I had read about, I don't know, like 30 pages of it and just didn't really persevere with it. I don't know how long ago that was, maybe like six months ago. And so I was a bit anxious that there was something that was stopping me from moving forward. Yeah. I was like, am I dumb? Is it boring? I guess we'll find out. While there are many things in life that can become lost in translation, the explicit spoilers for Babel by R.F. Quang that we're about to unleash are not one of them. If you'd like to avoid spoiling this book for yourself, hit subscribe and come back to listen to the episode when you're finished your reading.

Bridget 8:19

A word of warning: our discussion may contain conversations about racism, colonialism, war, violence, and drug use.

Laura 8:27

Oxford, 1836.

Bridget 8:29

The city of dreaming spires.

Laura 8:31

It is the centre of all knowledge and progress in the world.

Bridget 8:34

And at its centre is Babel, the Royal Institute of Translation.

Laura 8:38

The tower from which all the power of the Empire flows.

Bridget 8:41

Orphaned in Canton and brought to England by a mysterious guardian, Babel seemed like paradise to Robin Swift.

Laura 8:47

Until it became a prison.

Bridget 8:49

But can a student stand against an empire?

Laura 8:52

Alright, Bridget, I'm so excited to ask how you felt about Babel.

Bridget 8:56

This book was so fantastic. What a story. I've only just finished it this morning because I got so bogged down in every single word that she chose to put on the page. But I'm gonna read it again, I think. It was so, so fantastic. How did you feel?

Laura 9:11

Yeah, I thought it was phenomenal. I don't actually know how to describe the feelings coursing through my body, and I'm quite nervous about this episode because I think there's so much about what I enjoyed about it that I just like really don't know how to articulate, but I feel like, and the word is quite cringe, but I feel like I experienced something epic.

Bridget 9:32

Yes, I feel the same way. It feels like after I finish reading Lay Miz or another book like that, like I don't know, Great Expectations or probably more like a tale of two cities. It's such an undertaking reading this book. There's so many concepts and words that I'm not familiar with, and I really wanted to try to do the book justice and research as much as I could. It does feel epic to have finished it and just see like the broad scope of the whole book. Amazing. Amazing. Worth the wait, I think.

Laura 10:02

I do want to put a quick disclaimer at the start of this episode because I have been spiraling since early this morning when I listened to a podcast episode, and R.F. Kwang and the podcast host, who was American, were both calling it Babel. Um, I don't like that. I thought it was the Tower of Babel. In the audiobook, they say Babel. Oh, they do, don't they? They do.

Bridget 10:24

So I think they're either wrong or American. 50-50.

Laura 10:29

We've also called it Babel, but in fact, the full title of this book is Babel or the Necessity of Violence, an arcane history of the Oxford Translators Revolution. I did have to Google what arcane means. I've got it written in the book. Hadn't even cracked open the book. I think it's like obscure, unknown. Yeah. Yeah. Or known only to a few. Yeah.

Bridget 10:51

Many notes I have.

Laura 10:54

Alienated from page zero.

Bridget 10:56

It's like when I read Twilight as a 13-year-old. So many new words.

Laura 11:01

True. This could be the new Twilight. Okay, well, this book was published in 2022. I think R.F. Kwang was maybe 27 years old. I just sort of took a stab at that. So give or take, like a year or so on either side. What about a maths podcast? It's fun. It is a very sizable 545 pages. Um, and we were both talking about this earlier. And you're a very fast reader. You don't really shy away from big books, but it was reassuring to me to hear that you also found this to be fairly slow work to get through.

Bridget 11:34

The font is tiny. I think that also makes it harder. And I kept missing the little asterisks that would denote the footnotes because they were so small, I would just miss them.

Laura 11:44

They were tiny.

Bridget 11:45

So I would get to the bottom of the page and I'd be like, wait, where? And I'd have to scan. So I think that probably like added more time because I was constantly having to go back. I wouldn't say I'm the world's most observant reader, but I don't think I'm unobservant. I think my eyes are just pretty bad. No, they're really small. Many pages, tiny font, heavy subject matter, heavy vocabulary. It makes for a challenging read. Normally at this point in the episode, we would have a little bit of a chat about the author, but considering that we only recorded our episode on Yellowface about a month ago, we haven't really got any new thoughts. So if you are interested in hearing what we have to say about RF Kwang and how we think she is basically the best person alive, oh my god, then go back, listen to that episode, we'll wait for you here, and then come back and we'll keep going. I'm wondering if it could be a good idea to start off by talking a little bit about the format, because I think the format of the book informs a lot about the way the narrative unfolds.

Laura 12:40

Yeah, I think that's as good a place as any to start, because it really does tie into so many of the reviews that I was seeing. I honestly, like, I don't know what I have to say that's constructive or interesting about this book that isn't just a retaliation to some of the reviews that I've read. But many of them I think were not really comprehending the title of the book, which is an arcane history of the Oxford Translators Revolution. I feel like in the title alone, it's sort of telling you, hey, this book is almost going to be a textbook. And then couple that with the footnotes. I think like that's a pretty good indication. It's not like a standard fiction book. You're not going to have the same sort of like happy-go-lucky narrative journey throughout the book. Your expectations for maybe, you know, what you learn about the characters, what insights into their lives and their minds you get, like, I don't know. I just think to me, that format tells me it might be a little bit different.

Bridget 13:38

I read a lot of these reviews as well, and I was sort of wondering if these people maybe have just seen this book on BookTalk, picked it up, but haven't really read many classic books. This format wasn't that unusual to me. I think I've talked a lot before about in my past life as a reading snob. I would pretty much always exclusively read classic books, like from some lists that I'd found, like 101 books you must read before you die, and all of this stuff. So I found the format to be quite familiar, and I also treated it like an opportunity to learn a heck of a lot of stuff. I was looking at my journal entries on StoryGraph just before we started recording, and I think one of the reasons why it took me so long to read this book was because I had multiple reading sessions, but I would read a little bit, find something that either I hadn't heard of or I'd heard about in passing and never had the time or never had the thought to research at that moment. I thought, well, this is a great time to do that. And so I got really bogged down in learning about all of these things, like learning about the political system in the UK or learning about aspects of colonialism concerning the slave trade or something like that. And I just never really looked it up before. And so I think this book that is well written does feel like a textbook, but it's also an engaging way to learn about so much stuff. But it's like best of both worlds.

Laura 15:03

It really is. I was listening to a podcast with R.F. Kwang where she was talking about writing Babel and saying that part of what she wanted to do was challenge that idea that all of the interesting stuff happened in like the second half of the 1800s, post-industrial revolution. Like in this book, there's so much information about like a really pivotal moment in Chinese history. But I think more popular narratives ignore that kind of stuff and focus more on like, and then we got steam, and then we got wheels and goodbye to horses. Like it's just, I don't know. It's not the most interesting thing out there. I agree with her.

Bridget 15:39

I think it was also a really good opportunity to look at the history of a country like England. Things that were happening in that country around this time were obviously directly affecting Australia because, as we know, Australia is a former British colony. I felt like it sort of broadened my view a little bit. Colonial history is only very short compared to the rest of Australia's history, but there's so much stuff in there that I still don't understand. You know, it might have been whitewashed or it might have been a little bit too controversial for schools to be teaching, or obviously racism and everything plays a part in this. But there were a few things like, for example, there were a few mentions to the Eureka Stockade, which is like a union uprising that happened in the 1800s in Australia, and that was enacted by some people who were from England that identified as Chartists, which was a working class movement for political reform in the early to mid-1800s in the UK. I don't know. It just gave me a little bit of an opportunity to think about things that I know in isolation as not in isolation, if that makes sense. Like as part of a broader worldview. I think maybe we should start to talk about the characters. This book was a bit of a godsend for me in a different way. I am so sick of reading books where there are more characters than there needs to be, and I don't know who any of them are, and I can't tell you anything about them. But I felt like this book had a perfect amount of characters, and I could tell you exactly who every single one was, what their purpose was, like who they were as a person. They were just like well-formed characters, and it's such a small thing to be happy about. But with these podcast books, we don't get that very often.

Laura 17:20

No, well, our last podcast book was Magnolia Parks. And reading these side by side, it was like day and night.

Bridget 17:29

It really was. And I have just finished Magnolia Parks two days ago, three days ago. I still can't tell you how many people are in that friendship group. I couldn't when I was reading it. I can't now. So, but maybe we should start off by talking about our main character, Robin Swift.

Laura 17:45

Yeah, so Robin is our protagonist. He was orphaned by cholera in Canton and was brought to London by the mysterious Professor Lovell. Professor Lovell, it turns out, is Robin's father. So Robin's father is English and his mother is Chinese. So once Robin's been brought to England, Professor Lovell trains him in like Latin and Greek and Mandarin and pumps him full of all of these languages in preparation for the day that he's enrolled in Oxford University's prestigious Royal Institute of Translation, also known as Babel. I loved the character of Robin.

Bridget 18:20

I love how he had that mix of like being a reluctant chosen one and like suffering with low self-esteem, low self-confidence, like not knowing his place in the world. And I really enjoyed watching his journey from this scared little abused boy and turning into the man that he becomes. I really enjoyed that progression.

Laura 18:41

I really enjoyed that too, and I'm so loath to say it because I think she's a despicable human being. But so much of this book and so much of Robin's friendship with Rami and Victoire and Letty, who are his friends that he makes at Babel, was reminding me so much of like the best parts of reading Harry Potter when I was a kid. You know, those passages where they were preparing for their exams and it was so cozy and they were revising together and they were going crazy. And I know I'm skipping a little bit ahead, but it was just such a like warm and familiar kind of dynamic for these friends. And then the way that Robin, when he completed his exams, he was fine. Like he did really well in one subject. Defense Against the Dark Arts and was like okay in the others. I'm not even remotely suggesting that this is in any way comparable to Harry Potter or vice versa. But it gave me that same feeling. And that's something I really never thought I would achieve again in a book like this.

Bridget 19:36

And I also have to say that the found family in this loved it. I am normally a big found family hater because it always just seems all too convenient that all the people in the class are all best friends, but I just found it so believable. You know, they sort of bicket like siblings and they had their differences, but at the end of the day, they loved and cared for each other. I just really enjoyed watching that dynamic develop across the book.

Laura 20:01

This book is so incredibly quotable. There's so many quotes that I pulled out and highlighted as just like a sort of mic drop or like teardrop kind of moment. Um, there is one, Babel, his friends, and Oxford. They had unlocked a part of him, a place of sunshine and belonging that he never thought he'd feel again. The world felt less dark now. Beautiful. And then there's another one I think after his met Rami that says, In the years to come, Robin would return so many times to this night. He was forever astonished by its mysterious alchemy, by how easily two badly socialized, restrictively raised strangers had formed into kindred spirits in the span of minutes. It was so beautiful.

Bridget 20:40

And I was making connections between this book and another podcast book that we'd read, which was The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller. We sometimes get some comments on social media about our disappointment surrounding The Song of Achilles, but I think that the feelings that Madeline Miller was trying to evoke in Song of Achilles were perfectly executed in this book. And I think this example from page 535, when Robin is about to die, and I feel like I'm gonna cry. I'm gonna cry now. How many times? Robin's about to die. He's activating the bars. He's just had that realization that how could there ever be an atomic language? One language that everybody in the whole world could speak. And he said there was no innate, perfectly comprehensible language. There was no candidate, not English, not French, that could bully and absorb enough to become one. Language was just different. A thousand different ways of seeing, of moving through the world. No, a thousand worlds within one. And then he thinks about his first morning in Oxford. Stop. Climbing a sunny hill with Rami, picnic basket in hand, elder flower cordial, warm brioche, sharp cheese, a chocolate tart for dessert. The air that day smelled like a promise. All of Oxford shone like an illumination, and he was falling in love. Oh stop. It's so odd, Robin said. Back then they'd already passed the point of honesty. They spoke to one another unfiltered, unafraid of the consequences. It's like I've known you forever. Me too, Rami said. And that makes no sense, said Robin, drunk already, though there was no alcohol in the cordial. Because I've known you for less than a day. And yet I think, said Remy, it's because when I speak, you listen. Because you're fascinating. Because you're a good translator. Remy leaned back on his elbows. That's just what translation is, I think. That's all speaking is. Listening to the other and trying to see past your own biases to glimpse what they're trying to say, showing yourself to the world and hoping someone else understands. And that hit me like a ton of briggs when I was reading it, furiously trying to finish the book. I couldn't even stop to wipe my tears, I just had to keep going. But this is what I wanted out of Song of Achilles, this kind of sentiment.

Laura 22:55

I don't know how to articulate that difference, but it is different. It's just maybe it's just a matter of personal taste, but there's just this kind of earnestness and like sweeping, like paired back, like raw emotion that accompanies these passages that I just never found in the Song of Achilles.

Bridget 23:15

And I think as well, because it reads like a textbook, when those passages come through, they're full of heart, they're unexpected, it's not overladen with them. They're peppered through the book in just the right amount.

Laura 23:25

I think that's a great explanation. And one of the criticisms I kept seeing was that people found these characters to be one-dimensional or not well explored. Lots of people saying it read like a history book, lol. Lots of people saying that the characters should have been explained more and less focused on the events and what was happening in the world, also lol. But for me, I think it is those glimpses of emotion or conversation or like those rare like interactions that you see between the characters that perfectly portray who they are and how they feel about each other. And you're not really left guessing because what she chooses to share with you is like rich enough for me to paint a really full picture of who those characters are.

Bridget 24:08

Yeah, 100%.

Laura 24:09

If we're gonna talk about Robin, then we of course have to talk about Rami. And if we're talking about Robin and Rami, then I think we have to talk about their relationship. This seems to be a topic of some debate in some circles. Were they in love with each other? Was there any sort of romantic interest there? It was not really a question in my mind. Was it a question in your mind? Not at all. I think it's obvious.

Bridget 24:32

I think it's so obvious. I think some people are really just telling on themselves.

Laura 24:36

Yeah.

Bridget 24:38

I found their relationship to be beautiful, tender, and overwhelmingly tragic.

Laura 24:43

Me too. One of our listeners asked us if we ship. Of course we do. Of course we do.

Bridget 24:48

I think from the very first day, I was like, hang on a minute.

Laura 24:52

What's going on? Why are you guys talking so much? And then also the follow-up: would we have liked more insight into their romantic feelings portrayed on the page? And I think for me, of course, of course, I would like to have seen more and I would have liked them to be together and live happily ever after and kiss and I don't know, just enjoy their life. But I think what makes their relationship so affecting is those missed opportunities and the things left unsaid. I would echo that exactly.

Bridget 25:24

Obviously, I would have liked for them to have bought a little cottage in Hampstead Heath, lived there forever, happily reading their books and giving each other little kisses. But unfortunately, and I think fortunately for the story, it wasn't meant to be. In the past, I've always tried to understand when you say, Laura, that a character should have died, because I've never really felt that a book would be improved by a character dying. But I think I just haven't read the right book until now. And I think he should have died. I think his descent into grief and the grieving process making him a little bit more like his brother Griffin, a little bit more violent, a little bit more unhinged, was like what I think the writers of the Game of Thrones TV show were trying to portray with Daenerys in the last season. Obviously, he didn't go as far as and as soon as she did, but I think his slow descent into sadness and grief and wanting to avenge and wanting to enact revenge on those who had hurt him was so emotional, interesting, and like such an important part of the story. It was like someone who just had enough of all of this stuff happening to him. So obviously I want them to be together and have a happy life, but at the same time, for the story, no. The way it was, there was just that perfect amount of longing, of pining, and utter sadness when it was never gonna happen.

Laura 26:48

I think even that scene where they're at the ball, um, I think I'm gonna have to read out the quote long as it is. Even when I read it, I just had this like sinking feeling in my stomach. I just sort of felt like it was just gonna be bad times ahead.

Bridget 27:01

Yeah.

Laura 27:01

Even though I was also like giddy with excitement at the same time. So it says, Robin's mind was spinning with Claret, or else he wouldn't have managed what he said next. Why won't you dance with Letty? I'm not looking to start a row. No, really. Please, Bertie, Rami sighed. You know how it is. She wants you, Robin said. He'd only just realized this, and now that he said it out loud, it seemed so obvious that he felt stupid for not seeing it earlier. Very badly. So why don't you know why? Their eyes met. Robin felt a prickle at the back of his neck. The space between them felt very charged, like the moment between lightning and thunder, and Robin had no idea what was going on or what would happen next. Only that it all felt very strange and terrifying, like teetering over the edge of a windy, roaring cliff. And that's as close as we ever get. And it's heart-wrenching, but I think it's right. I think it's right too. The female characters as well, like obviously you would hope for this, with RF Kwang being a woman, but I think so often the female characters are just sort of the same, like the girls. And Victoire and Letty were so defined and so clear. It was so obvious who was speaking and what they both stood for and how they both would behave. It was really phenomenal. I think the way Victoire and Letty were always having these disagreements and these misunderstandings as well was such like spectacular foreshadowing to what, like, really was inevitable betrayal by Letty. And like the way that Robin in particular was so wrapped up in the fun of it all. To notice this sort of really inevitable way that their relationship was unfolding. Did you have any particular thoughts about Victoire?

Bridget 28:39

At all times I wanted to hear more from Victoire. I thought she was so interesting. And her perspective on things, whether it be, you know, their situation during the siege at the end or when they were on the ship, she always seemed to be a voice of reason. But I also enjoyed seeing those fragile parts of her, like when she was very self-conscious at the ball, she was very three-dimensional and it felt like she was very human. You know, I think it's really easy for characters who are that smart to just sort of seem like an oracle or I don't know, like flat, and they just always know the right thing to say, but she was falling apart just the same as the rest of them, even though she had, you know, very calm and well thought-out solutions to their problems. I think that she still showed that human side when she was talking about like Anthony as well, talking about her feelings towards him and how she felt after he died and all of these things. I thought that she was a really interesting character.

Laura 29:36

I think that's a really great point, and I think that ties into what I was saying earlier about, you know, the criticism that they're one-dimensional characters, all of the dimension you need is right there. I know we're still talking about Victoire, but in that same scene as well, like Letty, she's so desperate for Rami to notice her or take her seriously or love her the way that she loves him. As terrible as what she ended up doing is, that's just like one of the things that chipped away at her. And it's a very human tendency, and I think it's so smart the way she put in those kinds of fallibilities in her characters. Obviously, after Robin's story has wrapped up at the end of the book, we do have that little sort of epilogue from Victoire's perspective, and I was kind of in two minds about it. I think initially my response was, ooh, I don't like that. The ending line of Robin opening his eyes and seeing his mother looking back at him or whatever it was was so emotional. But then I love everything that Victoire's epilogue brings out and kind of like the hope that it presents. And I think that epilogue is really in line with some of the absolute bars that she dropped towards the end of this novel in particular. She says, We have to die to get their pity. We have to die for them to find us noble. Our deaths are thus great acts of rebellion, a wretched lament that highlights their inhumanity. Our deaths become their battle cry. I don't want to die, Robin. I don't want to die. I don't want to be their immoinder, their Orinoco. I don't want to be their tragic, lovely lacquer figure. I want to live. Absolutely astonishing, gut-wrenching throwing up crying when I read that. It just is such a gut punch. And then the end of her quote, which I think is really what the epilogue was sort of speaking to me, says, I want to live, she repeated, and live and thrive and survive them. I want a future. I don't think death is a reprieve. I think it's it's just the end. It forecloses everything. A future where I might be happy and free. And it's not about being brave. It's about wanting another chance. Even if all I did was run away, even if I never lifted a finger to help anyone else as long as I lived, at least I would get to be happy. At least the world might be alright just for a day, just for me. Is that selfish?

Bridget 31:48

Oh no. I started making myself cry because I was thinking about what Robin said to her.

Laura 31:55

Oh my god. I was like barely holding it together. And then I remembered that Robin said, be selfish. He whispered, be brave. Oh shit. It's so sad.

Bridget 32:10

Oh.

Laura 32:11

I mean, I know I'm just sort of in a circle of talking about the like five books we've read lately, but it was also making me think of Sunrise on the Reaping, the sacrifice, and like the kindness to give people the freedom to choose something that's different to what you're choosing. One last thing on Victoire's epilogue is that in a podcast I was listening to, the host asked RF Kwang if she'd consider or was trying to set up Babel for a series or a sequel, kind of alluding to that epilogue. And she says, it was never a part of the original proposal, and I don't think it's something I have time for right now. I have at least three other books in the pipeline that are all taking up my attention, but since the books come out, I've thought about it more and more, and I think it would be really fun to do a kind of Godfather II type sequel that has a prequel storyline and a sequel storyline running together. So one half would focus on Griffin and the other half would focus on Victoire. And the problem is I would first have to learn French and also become an expert in Civil War history because I think the next obvious playing field for this world is the American Civil War. But I'm not there yet, so give me a decade. Oh my god. She is astonishing.

Bridget 33:24

Something that just kept hitting me in the face was just how smart she was. Like when I got to the part reading about the match pairs, I was like, how do you know this? How do you know this stuff? How long did this take you? This sentence that has three different match pairs, how long did that take you?

Laura 33:40

I was blown away knowing nothing about it. But then also in a podcast I listened to, hearing her talk on that, she does do translation work. So she was, you know, explaining these translation theories. And she also did drop this really astonishing tidbit about silver working. And she said the magic system in Babel is called silver working, and how it works is a silver worker, a trained translator, engraves a word or a phrase in one language on one side of a silver bar and the corresponding word or phrase in a different language on the other side. And so I call it a semantic warp. But whatever meaning is lost or imperfectly conveyed, whatever etymological baggage or connotations don't make it out on the other side because there's no perfect one-to-one translation between words or phrases in any two languages, no matter how close they are, there's always something missing. That missing piece becomes manifested as the magical effect, and it's pinned to the physical object of silver, because silver was smelted with Mercury, and Mercury is the Roman name for the Greek god Hermes, who is the god of messengers and travel. And I think translation is just the travel of messages from peoples and places to other peoples and places, and of course, Hermes is where we get hermeneutics, which is about meaning. So it all comes together so nicely. Just blow away. The last friend we haven't really discussed is Letty. How did you feel about Letty at the end of this book?

Bridget 35:10

Oh, at the end, I just felt betrayed. I thought that Letty was a great metaphorical character for so many facets of racism. I think we saw like white women's tears, white people wanting to be educated by people of colour, white people not listening, white people thinking they know what's best. And I have seen some reviews say that her character was too obvious in these metaphors. But I think as we said in the Yellow Face episode, sometimes it needs to be obvious. I think it needs to be pointed out to people that doing these things, saying these things is the problem. It's not part of the problem, it is the problem. And so I think her character, although it was devastating to read her betrayal, I could definitely see it coming. I think that her character was an important part of the message that the author's trying to convey. How did you feel about Letty?

Laura 36:06

Yeah, I felt all the same feelings of betrayal and frustration with Letty. And exactly what you were saying, I was thinking a lot about Yellowface when I was reading this book. And a criticism that I've seen of this book on the whole is that it's too didactic and that she's sort of like talking down to us and explaining these concepts as if they're all new and we've never heard of them, like racism equals bad, colonization equals bad. And some people are saying that she's painting too obvious a picture. But I agree, like I think it does have to be spelled out in this way. And I think, you know, the position that we are in now in 2025 is very different to Oxford 1836 or whatever it was. And so what may feel overt to us now probably wasn't overt at that point in time as well. So I'm like, you know, are these the same people that are screaming about historical inaccuracies? Because I don't think this would be inaccurate at all.

Bridget 37:06

No, I would also like to direct everybody's attention to the start of the book as well. If we're on the topic of talking about historical and inaccuracies, RF Kwang has included an author's note on her representations of historical England and of the University of Oxford in particular. It's a two-page note and it's basically just saying, I know my shit, but shut up. Yeah. I found that amazing. I was obsessed with reading this. Basically, don't come for me, I'm smart. And the very last line of this note says, if you find any other inconsistencies, feel free to remind yourself this is a work of fiction. And I actually love it. I think that people that are upset about this get a grip because you're missing the point of the whole story.

Laura 37:55

Yeah, I think it's what you were saying earlier. Like, people are telling on themselves in their reviews of this book because I saw a lot of reviews, a lot of comments and discussion threads about this book where people were saying, Oh, Robin and Rami and Victoire, their main personality traits are being oppressed. Like all they do is complain. I saw one review where someone was saying they were upset because the way that these characters were speaking about like race and feminism and privilege and colonization was not reflective of the language people would have been using at the time. And I'm no historian, but I think that is like such a stupid take, as if people were absolutely 100% content and obliging to go along with this. And I would also say, like, I'm willing to be called out as a dumbass, but it is genuinely quite difficult to find primary sources like recounting the perspectives of, you know, like enslaved Africans or people in colonized countries during this time period because those perspectives were erased or never recorded. And so, although maybe they didn't have the same vocabulary in 1836 as we do in 2025, I think it's pretty ignorant to say that they wouldn't have been having these thoughts, feelings, or conversations.

Bridget 39:12

I would say that the book itself proves that that opinion is not true. There are a reference to many, many different people who were slavery abolitionists or union leaders, political activists who were having this conversation. One that I have written in front of me was William Wilberforce, who died in 1833. He was a British politician, a philanthropist, a leader of the movement to abolish the Atlantic slave trade. He was from Yorkshire. He was mentioned in the book. Another person mentioned in the book was Robert Whittiban, who died in 1835 or 1836. He was a British Jamaican radical, an abolitionist. He was born of an enslaved black woman and a Scottish sugar planter. And so I think to say that people weren't having these conversations is just factually incorrect. Of course they were having these conversations. How does change come about? Change comes about over a large period of time where people are influencing other people. Governments are not making these choices by themselves. They will not be making this choice unless their hand is forced, basically. Especially in the 1800s. And especially in a government like the government of the United Kingdom, who only stands to benefit from slavery, from colonialism, from taking other people's land, other people's languages, other people's assets, and financially benefiting from it. They're not going to stop unless people are having those conversations and forcing their hand.

Laura 40:33

Exactly. And I think Robin is the perfect window into this perspective because to be like really reductive, when he arrives at England, his initial perspective is like, yay, I've got all these books, like, wow, I'm eating this food. It's a little bit substandard, but wow, I've got these nice things. I get to go and study these languages. Wow, I'm with my bestie. We're like drinking wine, we're learning all of these things. I love enriching my mind. Wow, I have friends. And like, isn't this like a magical and wonderful place to be? And then the situation starts to sour around him. I think there's a line I wrote down where he says, he hated this place, he loved it, he resented how it treated him. He still wanted to be part of it because it felt so good to be a part of it, to speak to its professors as an intellectual equal, to be in on the great game. And then I guess as he starts to be sort of like drawn into this revolution and his understanding of the British Empire is soured, it says, Robin saw a great spider's web in his mind then. Cotton from India to Britain, opium from India to China, silver becoming tea and porcelain in China, and everything flowing back to Britain. It sounded so abstract, just categories of use, exchange, and value, until it wasn't, until you realized the web you lived in and the exploitations your lifestyle demanded, until you saw looming above it all the specter of colonial labour and colonial pain. It's sick, he whispered. It's sick, it's so sick.

Bridget 41:56

I also think in response to those people who were saying, we know colonialism equals bad, we get it, thank you, move on. I don't think we can move on quite yet, because in Australia, in 2023, we had a referendum which was to amend the Australian Constitution to recognize Indigenous Australians and create an Indigenous voice to Parliament, which was a federal advisory body to represent the views of Indigenous communities. The vitriol and the abuse that I heard, I saw in Facebook comments, I heard people I know and otherwise respect talking about and slinging about during this time was absolutely revolting. And if you think that the effects of colonialism are well understood, I invite you to come and spend a day in modern day Australia and look at comment sections from modern day Australia and modern day Australians who do not have Indigenous heritage and feel the need to spread their opinion that First Nations people need to quote unquote get over it and move on. The referendum did not pass. And so I think books like this still need to be written with that level of explicitness because we're not getting it. People are not getting it.

Laura 43:08

Yeah. I think keep going, we need more here here, because it's the exact same discussion we were having in our Yellow Face episode. I was really pondering as I was reading this because obviously the viewpoints of the author or the sort of like perspectives expressed in this book really align with my way of thinking. And so reading it, I was like feeling very affirmed, really like here, here, like, yes, like we need to get this message out there. I don't think it's as black and white as saying anybody who feels like spoken down to um or any sort of conflict with this book is like a bad person or like a racist or whatever. But after seeing so many reviews that were like, she's explaining it to me like I'm a child. I just kind of was like, and you're mad about that? Why? Because I think, like, yeah, if you do understand this issue, then I think you know people do need it explained to them like they're a child. So either it's like an ego problem for you, or maybe your secret. He's a little bit racist. I don't know when to wrap up this discussion about all of the reviews I read after reading this book, but I really was like so blown away by the amount of people telling on themselves. I know I've said that again and again, just parroting you in this episode. But like I saw one that said that they didn't understand the characters' motivations for their sort of rebellion. Rami was so ungrateful. Robin had a good life. Letty did the right thing. Like she was the only responsible one. I was reading some threads that were like those sort of live read-alongs and people adding in their little comments. And someone was like, I was so relieved when Robin said no to Griffin. He's avoiding trouble and he's being grateful for what he has. He has a good life here. And I really understand the temptation to say that. They just don't care. I think if you're still having those opinions that they're ungrateful or they're bratty or they have a good life, then you don't understand and you do need it hammered in.

Bridget 45:13

And saying ungrateful in this situation, have you read the same book? Saying ungrateful in this situation, where someone has been taken away from their family in order to betray their language. That's what they say. Translation is an act of betrayal. That's a crazy thing to say. To service an empire that's like actively working against your heritage and your family. It's like when Victoire was talking about the possibility of translating the Haitian Creole, and that he was saying, but you could be the first one to do it. And she just couldn't understand why that would be seen as an act of betrayal to be talking about these very spiritual and very culturally important beliefs and just sort of bastardizing them into the English language.

Laura 45:58

I'm dragging us back to characters, but I just realized we haven't really spoken about Griffin. And I think his the other really important half of this story, his beliefs are what tie in so perfectly with the title or subtitle of this book, Babel or the Necessity of Violence. We didn't see much of Griffin, but what we saw I absolutely loved. And I find him to be such a heartbreaking character, to be Professor Lovell's failed experiment, to be sort of like pulled from Canton when he was too young, to not know enough of the language, to never fit in, to never rise to this assignment that he never wanted to be given and then just cast aside when he didn't serve the cause anymore. It was so heartbreaking. And then to channel that into just utter rage and like demand for revenge was so sad to watch. I know Rebecca said, give me a decade for any sort of like sequel to this, but I really loved that relationship between Griffin, Evie, and Sterling and the allusions to Burma. And it's not much, but what we got was so delicious. And I just think like if you think I'm getting angry again, but like use your imagination. Like we don't have it spelled out what happened between the three of them there. But you can connect the dots and assume it's a similar situation to what happened with Letty.

Bridget 47:23

The problem is, and I'm gonna try to say this with as much respect as I can, but the problem is, is people are reading too many books where this character gets a book, this character gets a book, this character. There's no gaps anymore, there's no silences. We are not allowed as a reader in the current publishing industry of popular book talk books to fill in the gaps and use our imagination a little bit. It's my favorite bit. Everything is spelled out for us, and I'm sick of it. Use your imagination, but don't let this die.

Laura 47:54

It's the great part of books. It is the the big what if. I would love to know more, but I wouldn't say that I want a sequel. I want to know, but it's not the same as wanting to read a whole book about it. Yes, I would agree. Obviously, if she did want, I'd read it. Same. But I don't think I want it. It's such a gift to be left with such a tantalizing detail. Like even at the end of this book in Victoire's epilogue, when she opens the letter that Griffin wrote Robin, and it said, We're not the only ones. And then it had those three names, those three bird names. We're not his only sons, you can only assume. And so, you know, Robins died. Robins killed himself for this cause that he felt was like so hopeless and helpless, and like that there was no way out. And then we have this like glimmer of hope on the horizon that he never got to see. I understand why you want more, but just like let it rest.

Bridget 48:50

Yeah.

Laura 48:50

It's perfect.

Bridget 48:51

It's also like the effects of colonialism are still going today. And this book is so deeply rooted in fact and in real history, I think, even though it's magical realism and even though a lot of these things didn't happen, but a lot of these things did happen and are still happening. And so, is it a call to action? Is it a reminder? Can we get a satisfying conclusion when the effects of this book are happening in real life today? And will happen. At this point, it's generational trauma. So I don't know. I don't know if I want a sequel because I don't know if there would be a satisfying, happy ending.

Laura 49:26

I don't really know how to wrap up this episode. I didn't expect it to become such a slam on other readers and reviewers of this book. Um, and to a degree, I'm sorry that it has, but at the same time, I would like to share with you some of the really funny questions that I saw being asked about this book on Goodreads. One person said, What is the age rating to this book? I know a lot of people day adult, but like more specific. And someone responded, I'm not sure how much more specific you can be. The book is for adults. You can't say it's for 36 to 38-year-olds. It doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. Read. It's true though. It is true. It really, like, I don't know, is it for like 80-year-olds? What do they mean? One person said, Is this book considered YA? Another responded, not YA at all. The main characters are university students, but the topics or tropes of YA novels are nowhere to be found in this novel. And this is something that Rebecca Kuang expanded on in that podcast interview I listened to. She said, It's actually very confusing to me why people keep calling my books YA because none of them are YA. Young adult is a marketing category first and foremost. I think the only way we can draw hard lines about what counts as YA and what doesn't is what publishers and authors say about their books. You have imprints that put out explicitly YA novels, where in the jacket copy it says, this is a YA novel for readers aged 14 to 17. None of my books have ever been that. They've always only ever been put out from adult imprints and meant for adult fantasy readers. One person said, Is it necessary to read the secret history to understand the story? Responders said, The secret history by Donna Tart? Unless I've misunderstood the question, why would you need to read another author's book? We also have a dark academia hater. They say this may seem rude, but could someone who is not a younger person who uses the internet a lot, or at least does not engage in book trends like dark academia bullshit tell me if this book is good. The last thing I'll leave you with is a reading update from yet another person who's daubing on themselves in their reviews. I can feel how conflicted Robin is in finding where his loyalty should ultimately lie. I do think the ending of this part was very abrupt with the fight. I still do not understand what drives Robin and what he ultimately wants in life, other than regretting every decision he has taken. I feel he has this sense of superiority or victim game in himself, and at the end of the day, he's not really loyal to anyone. I feel bad for Letty, who has not done anything wrong, but still has to put up with her cohort. Letty is not the victim here, guys. There was one review I read that was like, I do like the name Robin, but it made me so uncomfortable how Dr. Lovell was like, sorry, your name is too hard for me to pronounce. Pick a new one. Also, you can't forget about Cantonese, it's not important. Someone else said, I'm getting bored with the story. I wish the silver bars were getting more action. Seems like a lot of unnecessary language detail. Okay, the last one I saw was a reply to a review where someone said that they felt that the writing was too modern and that they kept forgetting that it was set in the 1800s. And someone said, same. It kind of reminded me of Bridgerton. Contemporary vibes. Yeah, so many contemporary vibes.

Bridget 52:40

I loved how they were wearing acrylic nails.

Laura 52:44

I hate to be a hater. I really do.

Bridget 52:46

I love to be a hater.

Laura 52:47

Oh, I mean, I love to be a hater. I hate to be a hater publicly, but I do. I mean, I'm scared of the backlash, but I feel these feelings with my whole heart.

Bridget 52:56

I just feel like these are your opinions, and maybe this isn't a book for you, babe. I think we've really shocked ourselves about how much we've actually had to say about this book because I was really worried about what we were going to talk about, but once again, smashed it out of the park. Well done us. We only have a few things left to do, and the first thing is who's your favourite character in this book?

Laura 53:17

That's a hard question because I really like so many of the characters, which is a nice and rare position to be in. I mean, Rami's so easy to love. Victoire's so noble, and I love the kind of optimism and like strength alongside tenderness that she stands for. But I think I'll probably go with Robin because his journey is huge and it's so moving.

Bridget 53:42

Yeah, I have to agree. I was really tossing up between Victoire and Robin as well. But I think and I think these are qualities both of them have, but Robin's innocence in the beginning, and I j I don't know, I just thought he was a tragic character. So I'm gonna go with Robin as well. How about your least favourite? There's a few to pick from.

Laura 54:02

I was kind of pondering this, and I think Letty is the obvious choice, and I feel a lot of like hatred and disdain for her, but at the same time, I think the chapter from her perspective did a lot of work in like helping me understand her point of view, and I'm kind of optimistic that in another world with enough time and enough conversations, she could have come around to their way of thinking. Other characters like Professor Lovell, I don't hold out the same hope. I think he is a truly evil man who's like aware of the evil he's enacting and what it means and what it stands for, and is happy to keep doing it. So I think maybe he's my least favourite. I'm and I'm really not sure about that perspective on Letty. I'm still I'm still thinking about it. I just can't I can't decide.

Bridget 54:52

I think she did love them, but sometimes it's only so far love can take you, especially when you've been raised in this school of thought, and I don't know. But it is very strange to me that someone can be so smart and not see what's happening right in front of them. Although, has she been taught to be analytical and to be finding out things for herself, or has she just been taught to be parroting things back? Unsure. I think my least favourite was a toss-up between good old Richard and also Mr. Bayless, who they went to visit in Canton and use Robin as his translator when he was speaking with Commissioner Lin. He was an awful, awful man as well. Not a fan, um, to say the least.

Laura 55:36

Yeah, that's a great choice. He was repulsive.

Bridget 55:39

Repulsive is the right word, I think. Yes. And finally, I wonder what you're gonna say. Do you rate Babel by R.F. Quang lit or shit?

Laura 55:48

I read it lit.

Bridget 55:49

It was so good. So lit.

Laura 55:52

I'm so happy to have read this. I think it's not just one of the best books I've read this year. I think it's probably one of the best books I've ever read, and I can't wait to read it again.

Bridget 56:02

I think it has to be one of the greatest books we've ever read for the podcast. Oh for sure. Off the top of my head, I can't remember one that I've liked more or have thought was more important. So yeah, big call, but I'm happy to stand behind it, I think. I can't remember if I said, but I think it's lit too. For our bonus chapter for the month of July, we will be once again catching up on our correspondence with the funniest people in the universe, you. Our third Talk Lit with Us episode will be out in two weeks, but in the meantime, you can have your say on what we read next by keeping an eye on a link in our show notes and on our socials. Make sure you subscribe to the show, and if you want to be on the same page as us, follow us at talklit.gethit on Instagram and TikTok.